Saturday, January 28, 2012

Okay, let's start all over again

After three months, I visited a prostitute again.

Against all my promises. And it was to be expected.

But at least there is one positive point. I don't enjoy it at all. Not anymore. I feel absolute disgust. Total disgust. Visiting a prostitute is no fun at all.

I feel shame and anger. Real ANGER!!!! I EXPLODE!!!!!

Let's have another go at breaking my record.

The record of plus or minus four and a half years of not visiting a prostitute.
The record of three months of not visiting a porn site.
The record of one week of not masturbating.

I am beginning to see a great connection between all things. The connection between the rape of mother Earth and the rape of women. It is time for a new covenant. No more pollution and overconsumption, and no more sex.

Let's all live as equals.

I must have one clear goal in mind. All prostitution is bad. All sex is bad. All production is bad. All consumption is bad. All labour is slavery. All romantic relationships are slavery. I only have to really believe in it and to live by it. I know how much risk I take by visiting a prostitute. Especially because I fall for younger women. The probability is so high that a prostitute I visit is forced to do this, who hates it, who feels disgusted by doing this. The probability is so high that I abuse a person. It is irrelevant that there are some prostitutes who do it voluntarily and who enjoy their work. You never know. It could always be fake.

Are my goals realistic? Perhaps not. But I could at least minimise the damage. Minimise my consumption and production, minimise my sexual activity, minimise my abuse of prostitutes. Perhaps an absolute minimum (zero) is not always possible in real life. But I could always try, at least regarding my visits of prostitutes. Having no romantic relationships is already working perfectly, albeit against my desires.

(Everybody thinks I'm a moron)

Wednesday, January 11, 2012

Interviews with prostitutes - part 3

Main

My next installment regarding interviews/conversations I had with prostitutes. The two other parts are here:

Interviews with prostitutes - part 1

Interviews with prostitutes - part 2

This post will be entirely about one prostitute. I had contact with her in 2006, early 2007. She was 18 years old at that time. She worked in the Geleenstraat in Den Haag. A couple of clients also wrote a review on hookers.nl about their visit to her. She was very vocal on hookers.nl, writing a lot of comments in discussions. I also had contact with her via internal mail. I asked permission to her at that time, to use everything she has said. She said she knows many personal stories of prostitutes. Unfortunately I didn't ask about these stories. I do have the impression that a lot of what this girl tells is not from firsthand experience, but from deduction and theorising.

I sent an internal mail to her in which I asked her a lot of questions. One of these questions is if also many older prostitutes are forced to work in prostitution. She responded with a very long story, read here:

I have no clue who you are, but I find it a good initiative of you, and I think that you will benefit a lot from me.
Only one thing remains a difficult question.
When is a prostitute being forced? I have spoken with a great many girls and women and actually nobody does it for her own pleasure. They all got into it by men and can't easily step out of it just like that anymore. Most only come into contact with pimp-like men so they almost don't know better.
I think it is important to know several things about me, otherwise you don't know how objective my experiences are and about how many girls I can talk.
Since January I have worked behind the windows. I have started in Den Haag, in between in Groningen a couple of times, and I have also worked a couple of times in Amsterdam.
I'm certainly not a dumb girl and many girls who worked sensed that, I worked as a sort of problem-magnet and many relieved their feelings to me.
Women who work will never be able to tell their problems so easily to social workers and clients.
Unfortunately enough, I also had my own problems and I wasn't able to help these girls really well. Once I will take the matter up.
Back to your questions...
For the older ones that I knew it was approximately 50/50, some once did actually start for themselves and just have a family, they really lead a double life.
Yet there also are many who either way have gotten into it by being forced or are still under big pressure of a man.
I only find it really very difficult to properly separate these two. Foreign older women are often isolated. They live with a number of them in one house, a couple of men take care of them (often they supposedly have their own man, but that person must surely have more of them around) and they simply don't know better. Only you can't call this really forced then. Unfortunately.
It is also like this for the younger girls. I mean, come on, all these girls younger than 25 who still could do so many things. No one is born with the idea 'I want to become whore later'. And no one just completely came to the idea oneself to do this.
But okay, so about these younger girls you then probably do know already how many are being forced.
Now your question about the difference between window prostitution and other forms.
No, especially in escort agencies are a great many girls with pimps. Especially the smaller ones.
This is not because I have done it myself, but if I have a new job on the side, either if it is in the snack bar on the corner or behind the windows.. I will gain more in-depth knowledge about it. I try to unravel things as much as possible. Actually I have done my own little research. I have even lots of contact with pimps.. they know that I know what they do, they are also very open about it towards me. They rather see me as a sort of 'friend' than as an enemy.
Because believe me.. with these boys something has just also gone wrong once. With the upbringing or after this. A couple of them have simply grown up with it this way, their father did it, their family all work in this little world [of prostitution].
I absolutely don't justify it, I find it very very bad, but I find that today's girls are also stupid. I have also been stupid myself, I never should have done it, but fortunately I have completely stopped with it for already 1 1/2 month. And not for a million I go standing behind the window anymore. At most to be able to mean something for the girls there.
If you want to know more, or want to hear personal stories from girls whom I met there, just ask really. I gladly want to help you with that.
What are actually your motivations to do this? Soon I will also take a look at your weblog.

(I tell her that many clients don't seem to care about forced prostitution, they seem to think it is a myth, and perhaps they are right. I tell her about my theories, about that I noticed by studying forced prostitution cases that many Dutch forced prostitutes are forced to work in window prostitution. I asked her if also many Dutch prostitutes are forced to work as call girls?)

I only know of the region Den Haag, that many boys let girls work as escort there. Some have even started up their own escort agencies.
Exactly because it is often more difficult for the police to supervise than behind the windows, there are also more minor girls there at the moment.
Illegal small escort agencies have in fact been rounded up in the place where I live ([a city in the northwest of the Netherlands]), which used minor as well as illegal girls.
I just think that this happens everywhere especially on a smaller scale. Where I have also been for a short while is chatgirl.nl, this site is being supervised more and more, but if you present yourself as a possible client then you will get lots of offers from so-called girls. Very often these are ultimately just men (then I say that I am a woman and they want that I also come working for them).
What I have also done for a while is to ask for pimps on TMF chat (that wasn't blocked because a pimp is a 'normal' tough designation nowadays), also lots of boys react there. Half have nothing to do with it, but of many you do notice that they know what they are talking about.
I have also been 'recruited' by a boy myself, albeit out of free will. He quickly saw already that I was much too clever for him and he became a 'normal' friend of mine, although he does know that I actually hate him.
He himself has girls everywhere, in Amsterdam and Den Haag. There are also girls who work at escort agencies and make use of his 'protection' all the same. He doesn't force these girls, but he makes them believe that they can't do without him, with the necessary threats if needed.
I have even had a conversation with one of the 'higher' bosses, officially he has a respectable escort agency, but in the meantime he has many pimps and girls. This way he also had reception houses, where he places girls whom he brought from Yugoslavia for example.

(I ask her if the loverboys in window prostitution are in reality small boys who work for a "bigger boss"?)

First I will try for a moment to answer your questions.
Some loverboys work for bigger ones, or they get into it by chance, they learn it and continue independently.
There are boys who are forced to do this. I know that because I have worked myself in a juvenile prison for a year.
My whole story perhaps sounds a little bit unlikely, but more than a year ago I had an internship as an assistant teacher in [a juvenile prison].
([A juvenile prison]) where there are both many victims as well as 'perpetrators'.
If you want to have more details about that you may also ask that.
I hope that you do believe me, I wouldn't believe anybody who says to experience so many things that quickly, but you may always ask me for details to be able to check.
Okay, so there in [a juvenile prison] I have also got to know boys who were under such big pressure that they had to arrange girls. First it was explained to them over and over again and they had to hand over a large amount of money again to the bigger ones.
A lot of information about this is known internally, I don't know if this is also let outside a lot.

The other question.. about escort agencies, I don't know that so well. I only know myself a couple of examples from Den Haag and my place of residence. These were small, unknown, as well as bigger ones.
I know that even in clubs there are girls working who still have to hand over money to somebody from outside, but it seems to me that it does occur less often.

(I asked her where she saw that forced a prostitute aged 50, in which sector. That could destroy my theory that forced prostitution among relatively older prostitutes (older than 30) occurs far less often. I ask her if many Dutch prostitutes who receive their clients in their own homes are also forced, this form of prostitution is called private reception. I ask her if she is really just 18 years old)

I will try for a moment to answer your questions.
In the meantime I have become 19 years old, but I really was 18 years old when I did this work.
That forced prostitute I indeed saw behind the window. I did see more by the way, but with one I have often talked.
I know that there are girls who actually are being forced in private reception, but much much less than behind the windows. These are as it happens somewhat older persons who do it on the side every now and then. I do know of a couple of illegal houses in Den Haag where girls are really under pressure, but for the outside world they just do private reception.

(I asked her if it is true that many Latin American prostitutes work independently. And does she also know something about Thai prostitutes and African prostitutes?)

I find this difficult, because contact with these women is more difficult anyway. And actually, I have also hardly seen them behind the window. They were in the cheaper streets than where I worked anyway. I do know that there is a whole group of African women in Amsterdam who are under a big pressure of a couple of Dutch (yes, really purely Dutch) men.
I do actually believe that also Latin American women do have somebody 'behind them'. As it happens, it is rather difficult in Amsterdam (for example) to get phone numbers to be able to find a good window, how do they do this when they don't even come from here?
By the way, Thai women hardly work behind the windows, but more often in those Thai massage houses.. Hmm how they come there? No idea. I do only know that they live very isolated and also don't talk very quickly about something when something's going on.
You know what it is? I really don't have the idea that when somebody is without money the first thing what comes to her mind is to start working as a prostitute. Also the women who now work as good as for themselves have once been helped into it by somebody. I have never encountered somebody who wasn't. I can't deny it, but I even had somebody who arranged one thing or another for me in the beginning.

(I asked for her email-address, she gave it to me, but I asked no more questions to her. Actually I should have. Right now I want to know more about personal stories of prostitutes. At that time I was more interested in the big picture, in the numbers. At this moment I am more interested in the details)

Haha, you may always mail me.
You were one of the few who at least opened his eyes.

(But I closed them again. I am a jerk who started to abuse prostitutes again, after so many years of staying clean. Oops, the moral-crusader-side of me boils up again! As I told already, she wrote a lot on the forum section. She responded to a client who said he visited a prostitute who worked for a bad boyfriend)

Approximately 9 out of 10 girls do work for somebody. You don't want to know how many prostitutes have considerable debts...
Some only show it somewhat more clearly to the clients than another person. I know some of them, who work for 40 years already and they still have no penny of their own.
Some have an alcoholic, the other just a boy who comes with beautiful words, and the next one a junky.
I have encountered this in every city where I worked.
You become really sad of all these stories. I haven't yet decided for myself if I find this the 'own fault' of the girls or if I would rather like to do something to these boys. Both actually.
But okay, what can you do about it? Nothing.. at the end they choose for it themselves. If this girl about whom you are talking wants to stop with it or wants to stop with this boy, then she really has to do that herself anyway.
Believe me, nobody else can do this and the more people that say to her how stupid it is what she's doing, the closer she draws herself to him.
I would say; or totally leave it that way, don't visit her, try to forget.
Or keep on visiting her, perhaps these little talks with her mean something to her anyway and you do perhaps help her with that. You notice this for example by how much she pays attention to the time.
You may always ask me private questions about this, I am very honest and open about this and I do know in the meantime how many young girls live in this little world [of prostitution].

(She responded to a topic about what average ladies think about clients of prostitutes)

Hmm average lady.. blabla..
I belong to a somewhat younger generation than most people here and I notice that the 'normal' girls of my age don't accept it.
That is also the reason that I don't tell my girlfriends how I bear the costs of my study.
I even agree with them myself, actually I also don't accept it myself.
This sounds rather contradictory, but I entered it because of financial problems and on the other hand I’m against everything and everybody who is associated with prostitution.
Why? I have always been raised with the respectable image of a man-woman-relationship and I still find that actually you simply have to marry and only should have sex out of love.
So when I have a job myself soon and have no association with this little world anymore, then I will detest it again like always, just like many other people.
Actually doing this work myself has only strengthened this feeling only more, because now I see how many desperate, dependent girls do this work and how often they are psychologically nutty.
I am especially talking about behind the windows, where many Polish, Slovakian and other foreign girls came under false pretences, eventually have or have not accepted it and are not able to do something else now.
Or the young Dutch girls who have entered it because of their boyfriends and almost don't know better now and don't value themselves more than working as a prostitute.
I notice myself how quickly you get used to this little world, even when I still fight so hard against it.
So how do I view (other) prostitutes? I will be very honest, I understand it of myself, I had to make the choice myself what I'm prepared to do for accommodation+study. I have made the difficult choice to be prepared to give my body.
Others? I see them buy expensive things, gamble away their money or spend it on their sweet boyfriends.. I cannot understand this.
Of course I am also not a saint and I also do buy as consolation a little something more than the average student, but I only work when I really need money.
I can only imagine that you do this work when your feelings and thoughts have become so flattened that you only see the money and that you don't need to 'feel' the rest.
I don't want to attack anybody personally, everybody has one’s own story, that I don't understand people is something other than that I don't respect them, I have respect for every living human.

(She responded to a topic about how to identify possible loverboy practices)

Very positive that men want to help, really very good.. but… In the meantime I know really a little bit myself how things go in this little world [of prostitution] and like I have said before; 9 out of 10 girls behind the window work under force, or are clearly under the thumb of their sweet boyfriend.
Suppose that a girl really works under force and is being molested and that this lasts longer than a couple of weeks.. I am convinced that you can't do much for her. She will have to go to the police herself, another person can't do this for her. I have also tried it a couple of times and even when such a girl trusts me (a colleague) more easily than a client, until now I have achieved little with it.
On the one hand they often want to be helped, but on the other hand they are so used to this life, they do actually find it exciting or they love their boyfriend so much all the same that these thoughts win from the negative ones. I also don't understand this myself, but that's how it often is.
So according to me, what can you do best as a visitor in such a case when you have suspicions? Take care that in any case she knows that she can be sheltered when she goes to the police. There are many shelters in the Netherlands for ex-prostitutes where they are being helped and protected. I believe that when you have made this clear to her you have done enough for her, she will have to take that next step herself.
If necessary, you can make an appointment with her to go to the police together on a supposed date, then you will notice quickly enough if she really wants to be helped quickly and gladly.
If she doesn't accept this offer? When she comes with excuses? Then you really can't do much for her anymore, and you have done what is necessary.

(She started her own topic in which she said farewell)

Hello forum members and especially chatters.
I have just arrived home and soon I will move on to the next party again, but in between I wanted to do something for a short while.
I cancel my membership of this forum. I also won't chat anymore.
This has multiple reasons for me and yet as a last thing, I still want to do my talk for a short while.
Like a couple of people know in the meantime, I recently am 19 years old since a couple of months.
During the past year I have regularly stood behind the windows during the weekends to be able to pay for my study and rent. I entered a situation that I totally saw no way out anymore and I'm not averse to sex, so for me paid sex was the only last option.
I have definitely stopped now, I don't want to anymore and to be honest, I even can't do it anymore. So I'll never be working behind the windows anymore.
The men on this forum are not waiting for my, in their eyes often negative opinion. Unfortunately, I have seen and experienced too much misery and I have become too embittered by the fate of all these tens, perhaps even hundred girls whom I have spoken.
I also feel desperate when I joined discussions in for example a topic about fucking without a condom. I just only see these girls in front of me, who are forced by their 'boyfriend' to do things to earn as much money as possible.
As long as I stay on this forum I will continuously be confronted with the naive attitude of the men and I actually do slowly develop an aversion towards clients. This is not my intention. Also my feelings about the traditional man-woman relationships which have been weakened for a long time, start to emerge again. I am simply too old-fashioned to keep on gamboling on this forum. I don't want to spoil the pleasure for others with my strong views and why would somebody aged 50 listen to the opinion of such a young child as I am.
I can't say that I have always found the work terrible, I had many pleasant clients and with many I also often had many good conversations. Only during the last months it just didn't work out anymore and I only saw negative sides. The acting didn't succeed anymore, so of the men who walked by I only really allowed the types to come in whom really were my taste. I became more and more choosy every weekend
I was often on the chat box and I have spoken with a lot of people there, I also couldn't let all this completely go yet.
My new goal for 2007: pick up my normal life, continue my study and work hard to be able to pay my rent and everything anyhow.
So this is my real farewell, but once, if I have completely come to grips with the previous year, then I will start to help girls. Girls who don't do this work voluntarily and of whom so few people care about.
First I have to put my own life back on the rails now.
Clients: please be careful with what you are doing.. I am not against paid sex, but please take care that you treat the girls with respect. They are often such unstable and gullible girls. To report if you see something suspicious does hardly make sense, unfortunately I know everything about that.
I most certainly don't want to say that you are bad when you visit ladies of pleasure, absolutely not, but please.. just be careful a little bit.
Ladies: I know that many ladies come here who do private reception etc, that is something very different than behind the windows. So just do your thing as you like, use your mind while doing it and never do something against your will. Do you have problems? Seek help and ALWAYS maintain respect for yourself, your body and your health. Everybody has the value to be appreciated, also appreciate yourself.
Everybody: thank you that I could get one thing or the other out of my system by writing about it and I was also reasonably able to relieve things in the chat box, this was the start of my process of coping.
I wish everybody a very very happy and healthy 2007, I sincerely wish this to everybody.
I'm not able to completely let go.. I came here myself to this forum when I was on the verge of starting behind the windows. I mainly read positive things here and I decided to do it. There was nobody with whom I could really consult or could get my story off my chest in the beginning.
Hereby.. when somebody reads this and would gladly release her story.. I mean especially young girls with this, who have entered a similar shitty situation as I have: mail me, please seek contact with me. I won't try to save you, even if you only want to release your story.. that is always allowed. A year ago I couldn't release my story to nobody and that was really hard...

Friday, January 06, 2012

Interviews with prostitutes - part 2

Main

And now my next instalment regarding my interviews with prostitutes, mostly via (internal) mail, some via forums, notably hookers.nl.

For the other parts, here:

Interviews with prostitutes - part 1

Interviews with prostitutes - part 3

Now for part 2. At the end of 2005 I had contact with a prostitute via mail.

I asked her four questions:
-Is my theory right that trafficking in women among Dutch prostitutes rarely happens in clubs and privéhuizen?
-Do most Eastern European prostitutes have a pimp?
-Have most Dutch window prostitutes entered prostitution because of a loverboy/bad boyfriend?
-Do you have a couple of tips to which places I could best go to restart my hobby of visiting prostitutes?

She answers:
Uuh, while I speak from experience, 9 out of 10 times window prostitutes have ended up there because of the bad boyfriend. Dutch girls in this case. Most of the time they are not long with that person, because they then come into contact with other girls and then start to think.
In clubs and privéhuizen it also sometimes happens, but then 9 out of 10 times it are foreign girls from Brazil, Eastern Bloc etc..
Girls from the Eastern Bloc do often have a pimp, you then also see that these girls are with girlfriends in the Netherlands, and then you can almost assume already that they have a loverboy!
If you want really voluntarily girls then you could best search for girls who place advertisements on internet themselves.
Or indeed Dutch girls in privéhuizen.
I wish you a lot of luck to find a nice (voluntarily) lady, and if you have more questions, then you may always mail me.

(I ask her if she means that these girlfriends work for the same boy? I say to her that I notice that she certainly does it voluntarily. I suggested to her if I could go to her? Obviously, that didn't work out, as it turned out later. At one point the contact simply broke off.)

That's correct, I am a person who certainly isn't gullible anymore with respect to boys (loverboys, pimps, or so-called open-minded man)
I just believe that you have to be single for this work and certainly voluntarily.
Men who really love you don't share you with dozens of other men.
To talk shortly about these Eastern bloc girls, these girls are often brought here with girlfriends by 1 or multiple men.
I don't know if you have followed the series Matroesjka’s, but that was certainly the reality however. They are simply bought up as cattle and then sold again..
They then are in 1 place, and if they don't earn well anymore, they are resold to another in another place, and there they can be considered as new again!! Sickening actually.
But obviously there are also girls from the Eastern Bloc who do actually work voluntarily.
But you'll notice that quickly enough.

(I said to her that I had the impression that she really enjoyed her work)

(…)

But what you say is certainly correct.. I receive few clients, and this way I can also enjoy it myself and have fun in it, I have worked for a long time in this profession, also not really voluntarily and after this, I have continued for myself.. But therefore I am a person who doesn't like assembly-line work... So after four years after I stopped, I have started again last January and completely for myself.
That is the way (in my opinion).
If you have a bad day just for once, and somebody phones to you then you simply say sorry, I am fully booked today.
This way it stays fun, and I also see that 99% of the men are satisfied, and that also gives me a sort of motivation again... Because I know that many men have to save money for it for a while and if a date is over within 20 min in that case, and they aren't satisfied, then I also have no nice feeling. So I always think: just go for it, and make fun because you live only once.

(I ask a lot of questions to her, such as: is it true that pimps are often very ugly guys and not beautiful boys as depicted in the media. She answers to these questions)

Yes, it is a very sensitive subject: women trafficking and pimps.
But in my view, all girls who have a boyfriend (man) are a victim.
Some do it together as a couple, for the thrill of it, okay, these are the exceptions.
But nobody can tell me that if you really love somebody, you don't let that person share the bed with every Tom, Dick and Harry (let them play whore).
I don't know my way around in Amsterdam, so I can say nothing about it.
I myself entered prostitution when I was 16 years old, also by a bad boyfriend.
Fortunately I found out two days later that I didn't need him for anything and I offered him a choice, get lost or I go to the police with the story that you force a minor into prostitution.
After lots of whining he just chose for the first option anyhow.
Then I worked for two years in Arnhem behind the window, and I have seen a lot from very close up!!
Girls that were simply being supervised by 7 Moroccan brothers (they were beautiful boys) or else these girls wouldn't fall for that.
And these really aren't pleasant guys, a client once tried one time to get one of these girls out, and he was being shot at...
Yes, it mostly is the bread for the whole family.. and these girls (mostly from the Eastern bloc) are allowed to send 150 guilders 1 time or 2 times per month.
There are obviously also many Dutch girls who become victim!!
They have nothing, no family, girlfriends.. and then comes their prince on the white horse.. who allegedly has DEBTS. And then all the misery begins.
Mostly they (what they call) deposit their money at their boyfriends who allegedly saves it for them.. When the girls find out that actually it isn't saved at all and then say something about it, THEN things get serious and there are beatings and use of coercion.
I once have thought about putting a story in a book about my whole life experiences in this world.. Only not so handy for me, because nobody may know what I do and what I did.
What do loverboys look like????
Variously, mostly really very smooth, beautiful clothes, a good amount of money in their pockets.. and often visit you first as a client one time.
If you are already together, it can obviously also be other types (normal family men).

(I said to her that I thought that she also worked on De Wallen in Amsterdam? I asked her how many window prostitutes in het Spijkerkwartier in Arnhem were forced? How many have a boyfriend/pimp to whom they have to give all their money? Is it true that many victims of loverboys are normal Dutch white girls from normal families from the middle-class?)

I have also worked on De Wallen, but in Maasbracht, not in Amsterdam...
At that time it was the case that 30% certainly had a pimp..
And of that group it was certainly 10% Dutch white girls from the middle-class, but also really girls from rich people…
Last January I started again after four years.. but now by receiving privately.
And I'm very satisfied with it.. without (so-called) boyfriend.
Pleasantly in my own way and own tempo.

(…)

That percentage is based on all that I have encountered, windows, clubs, privéhuizen, everything.
By the way, in Maasbracht is not really a club, the ladies also rent a room there..

(She responded in the forum section in the topic about starting an emergency line for clients who want to report forced prostitutes)

Hi everybody...
I think that this campaign is well intended, but also a risk for the girls who are a victim of that!!
If their pimps find out.. they immediately relocate that girl.
If that's the only thing ..they could get many problems because of that.
The girls who work behind the windows can talk to the women of the ggd there, or with somebody of the Rode Draad, who visit you (in the time that I worked behind the window I mean).
On the one hand I find it a good idea, on the other hand I also do not.

(I say that I believe that the police won't have problems to find victims, that they don't need the clients for that. I believe that the only problem is that the police has undercapacity, and it is difficult for the police to persuade victims to lodge an official complaint)

Well, to undertake something against those loverboys, there indeed is a complaint necessary by a victim.
You can start a campaign here, so that men won't go to the ladies.
I believe that they simply replace the lady to another place, where she is completely new again, and then they will go like a train again.
The blame is also put on the ladies when they don't earn enough, this doesn't stay unpunished by their so-called boyfriends.
The girls have to find out themselves, and take the step by talking to the police.
The worst thing is mostly that, they go talking with the police, the police arrests these boy(s), have a conversation, and mostly they are simply allowed to leave again.
But these boys know that their girl has talked with the police.
And then hell really breaks loose.
Then the girl is suddenly gone, the boys too and nobody who has supervision over it again.
That's also the reason I believe why girls won't go to the police very quickly. UNFORTUNATELY.

(I tell about supply and demand. If clients consistently avoid forced prostitutes, then the pimps who force women in prostitution won't make money anymore. Because they won't make money anymore this way, they will stop forcing women in prostitution. And the brothel keepers should keep force prostitutes away from their brothels.)

Perhaps, but there are also ladies in this world [of prostitution] who desperately need the money, because perhaps they are single mothers with a very low income and many debts. (They would also become victim in that case)
I think that the oldest profession will never disappear, and that is only a good thing!
Because think about the men who fall for younger women...they now go to us, but if we aren't there anymore?? What will they do then....fill that in yourself.
I believe that the only way to stop all this, is that they start to work with registration numbers which are only available at the police and not at the tax department, they really won't talk with a girl, like hey, are you being pimped or something...
INSPECTION!! by the police and brothel keepers etc, that is important.
Keep an eye on boys who walk whole days in window neighbourhoods.
Take ACTION.. but yes, the law in the Netherlands is still so crooked that we won't have to wait for that the following years.

(On to the next prostitute!)

(In the same thread, another woman responded. This also happened at the end of 2005. She was 31 years old at that time. She said the following.)

I have often witnessed that girls had a loverboy. Often enough even. A quarrel that they hadn't earned enough, but what I also noticed, there were girls who were helped to get rid of "their" boyfriend, but a week later they were simply together again, just like old times.
I believe that these girls don't even dare to go away, because they are being threatened, beaten and you name it. It is so easy to go to the police, but in reality the police does nothing.

(I also mailed with this woman, I asked her a lot of questions)

I don't have that much experience in a club, so unfortunately I can't report anything about that.
I did work behind the windows, on the Ruysdaelkade in Amsterdam and in the Hague. I have witnessed especially in the Hague that girls had to work for a boy, mostly it were Moroccans. Even on the Ruysdaelkade I have also witnessed it. All the same there are also enough Dutchmen who have a girl working behind the windows. I can’t tell you how you have to avoid such a girl, because I really don't know that.
Such girls are very unstable to call it that way. These boys know exactly which girls they have to charm. I have never worked for a pimp. I stopped two years ago because I have emigrated, otherwise I would have still been on the Ruysdaelkade.

(I asked her to give an estimate of how many prostitutes are forced)

Not a clue, you could better ask these questions to the police.

(Is it true that generally older women work on the Ruysdaelkade?)

Older and young persons, but you have that everywhere. It is not only on the Ruysdaelkade.

(I explain more to her about my theories, and I tell her about my fantasies of being a female prostitute)

What you say is right, most younger girls are victim of a pimp. All the same, older women also end up in the profession by their boyfriend.
To come back to your question. It sounds very strange, but I had told you that I had stopped because I have emigrated, but I still miss it every day.
The thrill and the fun of getting attention from men.

(To the next prostitute!)

(I also spoke with another prostitute, older than 40. I asked her how to avoid forced prostitutes)

Do pay attention to body language I would say, girls who do this profession with love also ooze that out.
And most of the time you only know it when you have been there.
But do watch out with it, there are also ladies who abuse this to make a pitiful impression, so that the client will only pay.
I do find it a difficult item I must say.
I hope myself that I will never encounter a girl who MUST do it, I believe that the pimp will get a big problem.

(…)

You know what I find the worst thing, and I regularly witness that, that housewives have to work by order of their husband.
I find that worse than a registered pimp, or in any case that you know that he has girls working for him.
I had an escort agency in the past myself, and when I found out that the girl had to work by order of her husband then she was in a shelter within no time. It is very very sad that women let themselves be used for this, and that they don't dare to be emancipated out of fear that something happens to themselves or their children and family. And nobody who apparently does something about it.

(...)

PS: you did actually make me think again.

(I talked about my theory that prostitutes older than 40 are rarely forced to work in prostitution. So you could only go to them, but that would be pitiful for the clients who prefer young women)

But above 40 they can also be hot, really.

Sunday, January 01, 2012

Interviews with prostitutes - part 1

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This is the first part of my series of interviews with prostitutes. The two others are here:

Interviews with prostitutes - part 2

Interviews with prostitutes - part 3

I had some contacts with prostitutes, years ago. Mostly via e-mail or internal mail on a forum, usually hookers.nl. I stopped chatting with prostitutes, because I want to leave them alone for now. I can derive enough information from other sources. For the time being, I will place translations on my blog of the conversations I had with prostitutes. I think it has been such a long time ago that nobody will know who these prostitutes are, so there anonymity will sufficiently be protected. And I believe the translations will cloud their writing style. I will remove private data as much as possible.

I must say that while reading all these messages back, I look at them with a different view. I now realise that often I didn't understand what the prostitutes told me. I also notice that my writing style was really aggressive. I'm surprised how calmly the prostitutes respond to my questions and messages. I felt at that time that their writing was also very aggressive, but after reading it back I realise that this isn't true at all. I misinterpreted. They are actually very friendly.

I want to start with two prostitutes who both worked on De Wallen in Amsterdam. They have very different opinions regarding the extent of forced prostitution. Then follows another prostitute, a window prostitute who worked in the Spijkerkwartier in Arnhem, a window prostitution area which has been closed down a couple of years ago. The latter prostitute has also worked on De Wallen. And I want to end with an older window prostitute, who made a short comment about the extent of forced prostitution. I don't know in which area she has worked.

It is interesting to notice that the women have different opinions of what coercion is. Some see the women who are forced to work in prostitution by their boyfriends not as forced at all, because they choose to be with him in their opinion.

But for now, the first girl.

I had contact via mail with a girl. That happened in the months of January and February 2007. She was forced to work in prostitution on De Wallen, in the period when also the gang of Saban B was still active there. It is possible that she was forced to work in prostitution by members of this gang.
And here are some translations I made of the things she said:

(…)

As soon as I feel mentally and physically good again I will devote myself full-time to prevent forced prostitution. It so happens that the Netherlands has been overtaken by the facts. They don't know education for this social problem.
Concerning me. I also stood behind the windows indeed. When you make a little list of questions I can answer that with confidence.

(…)

I worked only for half a year. He treated me so badly at that time, that I totally collapsed, I really couldn't possibly carry on with that.

(...)

Everything started approximately two years ago. I worked in Amsterdam on De Wallen and there the power was so enormously big. When there will come problems sometime, and all pimps will work together against the police, then a substantial war will arise (for example!!).
In terms of percentage, I believe that approximately 75 percent (perhaps even 80) works there for a pimp.

(I asked her about these wars)

Concerning these wars, I did actually hear shootings on De Wallen, luckily not where I was in the alley. The point is that if these pimps really want to, and they will conspire together and all their errand boys added to it, then the police has a substantial problem. No, I believe it never happened but I find it absolutely not an impossibility. It is reality and the police knows it all too well.

(I ask her if it is true that it is generally the younger prostitutes who are forced to work in prostitution, contrary to older prostitutes)

The pimps don't look at age. If you look at the world through the eyes of a pimp then you will only see pricetags hanging on women (perhaps men). Obviously, the younger girls generally earn more, but suppose that you have a hot person aged 50 who isn't stable enough to resist that man. Then also that person will become prey.

(I asked the question if she also knew of foreign women who were forced, for example Eastern European or a Latin American women)

Yes, especially Eastern European. Boys just walk around there who literally sell those girls. That is women trafficking at its purest. Most Eastern European girls who stand there, work for a pimp there, or have worked, I believe the percentage there could be as high as 95.

(I ask her how she knows that so many women are forced, and I ask her if the pimps who controlled her also pay a visit to other prostitutes)

MMM
That's a tough one. You know, when I walk on the street I could point to pimps, I can say to you who are the errand boys, I can say from who you can get drugs.
It is something what you start to see.
Plus, in addition to this, is that when the same boy steps inside as many as 10 times in one day, day in day out, then you know enough. When girls are picked up (it is just as if they can't walk to the car themselves!!!)
I recognise it because of these things. Just sit on the pavement of the bulldog a couple of days during the summer, in front of the dollebegeine then you can exactly look into it.
You will see that there is a pattern.

(She probably means ‘the bulldog seeds’ which lies near the Dollebegijnensteeg, I ask if this is also true for alleys outside the Dollebegijnensteeg, such as the Sint Annendwarsstraat and the Trompettersteeg. I tell her I heard that many forced prostitutes work in these alleys. That is what a prostitute told me. And the gang of Saban B supposedly had many women in these alleys, which belong to the so-called Sint Annenkwartier)

Well, these are the alleys where I stood, yes, but just take for granted that it also happens outside of it.

(to the next prostitute!)

(I have asked questions via internal mail to another prostitute. That happened at the end of 2005. She says quite the opposite as what the previous one said. She has worked in many brothels, sex clubs, window brothels, and also as a callgirl. She has also worked on De Wallen in Amsterdam, and which alley? The Dollebegijnensteeg. But that was after the Saban B period however. She has also worked on the Achterdam in Alkmaar. That was within the Saban B period. It is possible she knew him.)

(I ask her what she notices of forced prostitution in daily life, is it really all that bad?)

Haha, you may ask me really everything. No, I have no pimp, and most girls I know also don't. Haha, I don't discriminate but on street I talk with nobody. And I don't fall for Turks and Moroccans at all.
I unfortunately don't know it of Eastern European girls, you should ask that yourself anyway.
I myself entered the profession when I was 18 years old, just out of curiosity. And I'm still satisfied with it.
The criminal circuit isn't really so bad, like often an elephant is made out of mosquito. (…) You often see such men with a Dutch girl or with their own people.

(I tell her about all the high percentages of forced prostitutes often named by prostitutes, social workers and other people. I asked her about pimps hanging around Eastern European prostitutes, doesn't she see that?)

I must honestly say that I also don't associate with Eastern European ladies, so I really wouldn't know. You could be right anyway, in terms of percentage that would be really an exaggeration.
What I do know is that many ladies make up a story, that they are pitiful and have to hand over all their money, and that clients actually wheedle money out of them.

(…)

I do believe that many Eastern European girls lie about that working under force, because they can get help from humanitas, and get help, schooling and allowance.
At least, that's what you often hear.

(…)

No, I don't notice anything of it. And girls who say that they are being pimped, cause it themselves in my opinion. Afraid to receive beatings or something like that. I would have taken my high heels shoes a long time ago, and beaten the man to hell. In my opinion, a man who beats a woman is weak, it is pitiful for such girls, but they do it themselves anyway.
In life it is not what somebody does to me, but you could better think what you do to yourself. And try to make improvements in it.
It is just pleasant work, and it is supposed to stay this way.

(I tell her about my fantasy that I am a woman, and that I want to work in prostitution, and that I buy lingerie etc... And then I open the curtain. I ask her how her first day was, did she have heavy orgasms?)

No, I did start out of curiosity, but you find it too scary and you are too nervous to enjoy it.
I was 18 years old when I started at an escort agency, and I didn't have sexy clothes yet at that time. I wasn't very experienced or so, I just had had one boyfriend. Furthermore I wasn't used to every Tom, Dick and Harry touching me. This is not the film 'pretty woman' after all, where you meet nice clients, but my first client was an old man aged 60, unsympathetic, and arrogant.
So there goes your beautiful fantasy, after my first client I stopped for a while with this work. But okay, nice clients do make this work pleasant again.
You forget one thing, you don't only sell your body, but also your dignity. And that is what many don't understand. After all, for those men you are only a small piece of meat with a hole.

(…)

It is pleasant work, but every now and then you have rotten men. But what I said already, nice men make the work pleasant again. But then I was 18 years old, a perfectly normal girl who went to school. Is it okay just for once, that I became somewhat shocked? At that time I wasn't so emancipated yet. Now I deal with it very differently, but everybody will be. Haven't you changed??? I mean, when you look back on how you were when you were 18 years old, and now?? After you gained some more experiences??
But you have rotten people everywhere, haha, I could already get annoyed at people who jump the queue at the counter.
Just call that high-spirited.
You asked yourself about my experience, my first time in prostitution. I will say that was shit!!
But practice makes perfect they say hahaha like, I also didn't like my first time that I had sex with my boyfriend. Haha, I imagined more of it.
Was your first time okay then? I mean, didn't you feel nervous?? Did you feel at ease?? The strange thing is, I feel more at ease with one person than with another.
Anyhow, it is giving and taking, if you treat me nicely and respectfully, then I will also be like that the other way around.
I'm not a nymphomaniac or something, but erotica attracts me, regularly I also go to a swingers club with girlfriends. Just for fun.
You do ask a lot??
(…) if I wouldn't have liked the work then I wouldn't have persisted for four years.
And yes, some men are also nothing, do you like every woman?? Do you want to fuck every woman? Even if she is rowdy?? Or aggressive?? Or just gives orders??
You tell me.
Is it so bad that I can't stand men who are unsympathetic, are annoying, and thinks because he pays he wants to do everything with you?? Even if you don't do certain acts?? After all, that has been informed [to the clients] by the escort agency then.
Is it so bad then, that I can't stand men who put me to the test again and again, by crossing my boundaries??
I also don't put a dildo in your ass, don't I?? If you don't want that?? I also wouldn't hurt you, wouldn't I?? Hahaha, can you imagine it??
Anyway, be honest, we are sex objects and you the whore hoppers, you can present it nicely, but what's the difference. I would say, make a lot of fun, because you only live once. And life is what you make of it yourself.
I wish you the best.

(I tell her that I thought she worked on the Achterdam in Alkmaar)

You have read it well, I indeed work on the Achterdam in Alkmaar. Two years ago I also worked in Utrecht on the Zandpad.
So when I was 18 years old, I first started with escort, (…), I only did that for a short while, because I wasn't satisfied with it that much. Because as a lady you also never know in front of a whose door you are standing, and dangerous.
Then I worked for a while in a privéhuis [you know a club without a bar where the prostitutes are directly introduced to the clients in a separate room – Donkey] (…), afterwards together with a girlfriend in a club named (…) in Rotterdam. And then windows. But I just like variation, and you just try everything.
But I now work for four years already, on many different locations, also worked in Antwerpen. But wherever I have worked, I have never witnessed slave trade or women under force.

(to the next prostitute!)

(I also chatted with a young prostitute in 2005, aged 21 at that time. She initially was forced herself to work in prostitution, at the age of 14. At least, that's what I can remember.)

(I asked her if it is true what the Scharlaken Koord says about most Dutch window prostitutes entering prostitution because of a bad boyfriend/loverboy. The Scharlaken Koord is a Christian organisation who works mainly on De Wallen in Amsterdam to support prostitutes and help them leave prostitution. They speak with many prostitutes, and they know a lot about window prostitutes. I also asked about the Eastern European prostitutes, are most forced to work?)

Yes, I believe what the Scharlaken Koord claims could be true, but that's only the case in the beginning, so many girls leave such a guy after this, or they go to another. And yes, I do believe regarding the Eastern European girls that they have a pimp, how else must they get the money to come here, that cannot be earned there, look, all the things you need to migrate to another country?! And yes, mostly girls do have a partner, but look, forcing is a big word, let's say being tricked, and there are also lots of girls who have a man who simply accepts that his wife is doing it, you understand, it is 2005, the people think differently nowadays, yes, and if you want to live big, then you will have to work for it, whatever work that is, and if you have debts as a family for example, and you want to get out of it, you can choose for example, or the man will do illegal things, which causes the family to run the risk to lose your husband or father because of death or imprisonment, while you could also earn the same money and legal you understand???? That's how many people think nowadays?

(I ask if she wants to name a percentage)

Real force, that's what I don't know, you can almost never see that from outside, and girls who are really forced don't work out in the open that quickly with girls who just work you understand, these people are way too afraid that another girl notices something, and then they will be in danger with respect to the police and the like, but a rough estimate I believe is 15%, but that is really undercover, they mostly don't work behind the windows, because behind the windows it will cost money regarding things like for example lingerie and make up and the like, and they would rather not spend it obviously, look a loverboy is different from a real human trafficker.

(I asked her if she knows a place where there is absolutely no forced prostitution. I say that 15% is the lowest estimate I have heard)

If you want to go to a nice brothel where there are nice and sociable girls, then it would be best to go to Camilla Privé, that's on the Sonsbeeksingel 2 in Arnhem, and there are no forced girls there as far as I know! Look, and you say that it is the lowest estimate that you have ever heard, but forcing in my opinion is when a man threatens you with things, where you don't work I will shoot your mother to pieces and those sort of things! Things like honey, I need money, my rims are done for or something, in my opinion that's the own choice of the girls, well, fair's fair, here in the Netherlands there are many ways to find help, and if you have a girl behind the windows it is even more difficult to force her! Because one step outside of the door and you are free and the police comes walking by quite regularly. And what is all told to you is from my own experience, I haven't dreamt it up, it so happens that I was 14 years old when I had my first client on De Walletjes [she means De Wallen]. So in the mean time I work 7 years already.

(I talk with other clients of prostitutes on a forum about alleys where forced prostitutes work in window prostitution areas. She responds to that discussion)

Stoofsteeg Amsterdam Wallen, called the pimp alley among people of De Wallen and Sint Annendwarsstraat, Dollebegijnensteeg, Trompettersteeg, all 4 full with such girls, but don't even think about making the world a better place!!! People who haven't been in the same boat don't know how it's working!!! Boys, just forget it, it just won't work, it never will!!! The love of a prostitute for her partner goes straight through everything. Once they love somebody, prostitutes are often as loyal as a dog then! Why do some girls stay for years with a man who demolishes them, literally and metaphorically!!! They have to recognise that themselves, and when that doesn't happen then nothing succeeds! And if you want to drive apart two "lovers" they will only grow more towards each other. And if you do actually succeed to bring such a girl to other thoughts, she possibly will revolt and then the little courage and self-confidence that she has for a short while, will be truly kicked, spat and beaten out!!! So if you want to help these girls, then just simply leave them alone!! They will find out themselves, they truly will….. I also found out!

(On the forum I talk about what brothel owners can do about forced prostitution. They could just refuse forced prostitutes, have a talk with them first, how long have they been working, ask questions about if their boyfriends have debts, etc… I ask how many clients would stop visiting prostitutes if they would truly realise how many women they visit are forced and manipulated to do this. She responded to that message)

You can take it from me that nobody will stop visiting prostitutes! Look, if you are an owner of a brothel it's another story, and then you can do something, then you just honestly tell that girl that you have the feeling that she doesn't fit into your house, then it's easily done, that's even the most friendly way! And yes, it's all true what you say, but only as an outsider, if you at least are that then I advise you to stay out of it! It's all very awful, but they say that prostitution is the oldest profession in the world, but what do you think who has gotten her this far that she started to do this work?????? Ah yes, right, so as long as there are whores there are pimps!!!

(…)

You must just do your own thing, and just see with your own eyes what will happen if you will frustrate the pimps, because according to them that would be just like taking the breath out of their mouths! But you have to know for yourself, good luck!

(I showed her the link to the article written by Ruth Hopkins about the slave trade on De Wallen where she explains about the Turkish gang of Saban B and some other groups of pimps, also about the pimp called 'Lion' in the article, here's the link:
http://www.debalie.nl/artikel.jsp?podiumid=digitale&articleid=44036 , Slavenhandel op de wallen, NRC Handelsblad, October 1, 2005)

You are right, I know that boy Lion personally, his name is not Lion however, but Dragon, named after the dragon in his neck, and I also know the other Turks, but they have never made moves towards me.

(I ask her if Dragon is a handsome boy)

Ah yes, the only thing I can say is that they all pay a looooot of attention to their appearance, well, even when an ape wears a golden ring, he is and always will be an ugly thing......... not personally intended against him, but eh, he has left the business a very long time ago, together with a Moroccan girl, so I have heard, and pleasantly calm nowadays! This is called pimp on retirement ahahhaa.

(I complain to her that nobody responds to me anymore, and I tell her that I want to interview pimps on De Wallen)

When you do that then you are reeeeeeeally stupid I tell you, and don't you understand yourself why people don't respond anymore? Those percentages are nonsense and for people who have nothing better to do.

(I also chatted with an older window prostitute in 2005, who was born in 1973. She must have been 32 at the time. She says that a lot of her colleagues are independent. I asked her how many of her colleagues were forced to work in prostitution by pimps human traffickers and loverboys)

I'm actually not in the mood to do this, but just to give an answer..
I think that the percentages are a little like 50/50 where I work.
And no, I have never worked for a pimp.