Saturday, April 03, 2010

Women don't like sex any more than young boys do

Main

Abstract: In this rather chaotic post I surmise that women generally don't have a sex drive larger than those of 10-year old boys and girls, because women's (free) testosterone levels aren't that much higher than those of children of that age. It explains why women don't seem to be that much interested in pornography and why women rarely pay for sex. However, it must be added that there is no direct linear relationship between testosterone levels and sex drive. A high testosterone level doesn't mean that a person is automatically horny. It also depends on other psychological factors, for instance: being tired or depressed. And also, it doesn't matter for your sex drive if you have a testosterone level above a certain value. The effects of testosterone seem to level off above and below a certain point. It seems that testosterone works more like a switch: below a certain level your sex drive is in the off-state, above that level it could switch on depending on your mood. At the end, I pose that there cannot be a relationship between testosterone and sex drive, because it doesn't explain the existence of female sex/porn addicts. The last thing proves that the apparent low sex drive of women has social causes, probably many women somehow choose to restrain themselves. But... then I turn to a study which reveals that most men who are castrated lose their libido completely, but a small minority of approximately 10% lose their sex drive only a little bit. So that could mean that testosterone does have a big influence except for a small minority of people who are immune to it and have a high sex drive regardless of testosterone levels. So perhaps that the women who watch porn everyday are just peculiar exceptions.

Lately, I'm still mourning about the gradual realization that women have hardly any sexual feelings. With great effort I was able to pick some numbers from the internet regarding testosterone levels in boys, men and women. The numbers are really an eye-opener. I knew that women had less testosterone in their blood than men do, but I didn't know the differences were that big. Remember, testosterone levels in your blood are strongly related to your degree of sexual feelings. The higher your testosterone levels, the more sexual feelings that you have (all other things being equal).

The following information about the testosterone levels in young boys I retrieved from a website dedicated to the Klinefelter Syndrome. Unfortunately they didn't reference to the sources, but I assume the information is right. This is the source:
http://www.47xxy.com/Gloss/prepubertal%20XY_T.htm
And these are the numbers:

normal prepubertal XY male testosterone levelscord blood 17-61 ng/dL*
1-10 days /= 187 ng/dL**
1-3 months 72-344 ng/dL
3-5 months /= 201 ng/dL
5-7 months /= 59 ng/dL
7-12 months /= 16 ng/dL
1-5 years /= 12 ng/dL
6-9 years 3-30 ng/dL
10-11 years 5-50 ng/dL
12-14 years 10-575 ng/dL
15-17 years 220-800 ng/dL

* ng/dl = nanograms to the decilitre - U.S. quantity
** /= indicates less than or equal to

Information on the same website about adult male testosterone levels:
http://www.47xxy.com/Gloss/Hormlevel.htm
Adult males: 350-1050 ng/dl

http://www.aruplab.com/guides/ug/tests/0081056.jsp
ARUP's Laboratory Test DirectoryTestosterone, Free & Total (Includes Sex Hormone Binding Globulin), Females or Children : 0081056

Female Free Testosterone, pg/mL
1-6 years: Less than 0.6 pg/mL
7-9 years: 0.6-1.8 pg/mL
10-11 years: 0.1-3.5 pg/mL
12-13 years: 0.9-6.8 pg/mL
14-15 years: 1.2-7.5 pg/mL
16-17 years: 1.2-9.9 pg/mL
18-30 years: 0.8-7.4 pg/mL
31-40 years: 1.3-9.2 pg/mL
41-51 years: 1.1-5.8 pg/mL
Postmenopausal: 0.6-3.8 pg/mL
Tanner Stage I: Less than 2.2 pg/mL
Tanner Stage II: 0.4-4.5 pg/mL
Tanner Stage III: 1.3-7.5 pg mL
Tanner Stage IV: 1.1-15.5 pg/mL
Tanner Stage V: 0.8-9.2 pg/mL

Male Free Testosterone, pg/mL
1-6 years: Less than 0.6 pg/mL
7-9 years: 0.1-0.9 pg/mL
10-11 years: 0.1-6.3 pg/mL
12-13 years: 0.5-98.0 pg/mL
14-15 years: 3-138.0 pg/mL
16-17 years: 38.0-173.0 pg/mL
18 years and older: 47-244 pg/mL
Tanner Stage I: Less than or equal to 3.7 pg/mL
Tanner Stage II: 0.3-21 pg/mL
Tanner Stage III: 1.0-98.0 pg mL
Tanner Stage IV: 35.0-169.0 pg/mL
Tanner Stage V: 41.0-239.0 pg/mL

Female (Serum Total Testosterone, Determined by LC-MS/MS )
Premature (26-28 weeks): 5-16 ng/dL
Premature (31-35 weeks): 5-22 ng/dL
Newborn: 20-64 ng/dL
1-7 months: Levels decrease during the first month to less than 10 ng/dL and remain at this level until puberty.
7-9 years: Less than 15 ng/dL
10-11 years: 2-42 ng/dL
12-13 years: 6-64 ng/dL
14-15 years: 9-49 ng/dL
16-17 years: 8-63 ng/dL
18-30 years: 11-59 ng/dL
31-40 years: 11-56 ng/dL
41-51 years: 9-55 ng/dL
Postmenopausal: 6-25 ng/dL
Tanner Stage I: Less than 17 ng/dL
Tanner Stage II: 4-39 ng/dL
Tanner Stage III: 10-60 ng/dL
Tanner Stage IV: 8-63 ng/dL
Tanner Stage V: 10-60 ng/dL

Male (Serum Total Testosterone, Determined by LC-MS/MS )
Premature (26-28 weeks): 59-125 ng/dL
Premature (31-35 weeks): 37-198 ng/dL
Newborn: 75-400 ng/dL
1-7 months: Levels decrease rapidly the first week to 20-50 ng/dL, and then increase to 60-400 ng/dL between 20-60 days. Levels then decline to pre-pubertal range levels of 3-10 ng/dL by seven months.
7-9 years: Less than 9 ng/dL
10-11 years: 2-57 ng/dL
12-13 years: 7-747 ng/dL
14-15 years: 33-585 ng/dL
16-17 years: 185-886 ng/dL
18-39 years: 300-1080 ng/dL
40-59 years: 300-890 ng/dL
60 years and older: 300-720 ng/dL
Tanner Stage I: Less than 20 ng/dL
Tanner Stage II: 2-149 ng/dL
Tanner Stage III: 7-762 ng/dL
Tanner Stage IV: 164-854 ng/dL
Tanner Stage V: 194-783 ng/dL

And now information about testosterone levels in adult men and women retrieved from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference_ranges_for_blood_tests (reliable)
Male younger than 50: Lower limit = 290 ng/dL, Upper Limit = 1300 ng/dL
Males older than 50: Lower limit = 180 ng/dL, Upper limit = 740 ng/dL
Female: Lower limit = 20 ng/dL, Upper limit = 80-85 ng/dL

http://www.midlife-passages.com/hormone.htm
Men: Mean = 700 ng/dL, range = 300-1100 ng/dL
Women: Mean = 40 ng/dL, range = 15-70 ng/dL

http://www.testosterone-levels.com/testosterone_levels_women.htm (this website is really dubious)
"Prepubescent boys and girls have similar amounts, less than 30 ng/dl".
"When puberty first hits, testosterone levels in women raise gradually, maybe to 40 or 50 ng/dl by age 15. By age 20, normal testosterone levels for women are around 70 ng/dl."

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/86/4/1842 (this one is reliable)
(The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 86, No. 4 1842-1843 Copyright © 2001 by The Endocrine Society, Letters to the Editor What Are "Normal" Testosterone Levels for Women? Susan Davis and Jane Tran) :
premenopausal levels = 1.20 ± 0.69 nmol/L (=34,6 ± 19.9 ng/dL using a conversion factor of 0.0347)

http://www.mens-hormonal-health.com/normal-testosterone-levels-in-men.html (also reliable!)
(Simon, D., Nahoul, K., & Charles M.A. (1996). Sex hormones, aging, ethnicity and insulin sensivity in men: an overview of the TELECOM Study. In Vermeulen, A. & Oddens, & B. J. (Eds.), Androgens and the Aging Male (pp. 85-102). New York: Parthenon Publishing.) :
Mean=692 ng/dL, Median=697, men younger than 25 (N=125)
Mean=669 ng/dL, Median=637, men aged 25-29 (N=354)
Mean=621 ng/dL, Median=597, men aged 30-34 (N=330)
Mean=597 ng/dL, Median=567, men aged 35-39 (N=212)
Mean=597 ng/dL, Median=597, men aged 40-44 (N=148)
Mean=546 ng/dL, Median=527, men aged 45-49 (N=154)
Mean=544 ng/dL, Median=518, men aged 50-54 (N=164)
Mean=552 ng/dL, Median=547, men aged 55-59 (N=155)

http://www.fsdinfo.org/pdf/2005_03_7-03.pdf
Marazziti D, Canale D. 2004. Hormonal changes when falling in love. Psychoneuroendocrinology 29(7): 931-936.
Men in love: 410 ± 100 ng/dL (N=12)
Men (control group): 680 ± 210 ng/dL (N=12)
Women in love: 120 ± 40 ng/dL (N=12)
Women (control group): 60 ± 20 ng/dL (N=12)

http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/low-testosterone
A quote from sex therapist Louanne Cole Weston, PhD (I'll emphasis some text):
"According to Henry Ritter, MD, a urologist from Atherton, Calif., the most useful number to know is the "free testosterone" (or bioavailable testosterone). The "total testosterone" reflects free and bound testosterone. Bound testosterone is not available to boost libido because it is linked to proteins, such as albumin and sex hormone binding globulin, according to John E. Gould, MD, PhD, associate clinical professor of urology at the University of California at Davis. Gould also recommends getting the free testosterone number.
Different labs measure free testosterone differently. But ranges they consider "normal" generally fall between 260 nanograms/deciliter to 1,000 ng/dL (or 2.6 nanograms/milliliter to 10 ng/mL). Since physicians and laboratories have only recently begun to recognize the importance of testing free testosterone, you may have to lobby to get the test. If you are unable to get that reading and are forced to stick with total testosterone, learn the range of normal for your lab. Normal ranges for men usually are between 250 ng/dL to 1,200 ng/dL of blood (2.5 ng/mL to 12 ng/mL).
Keep in mind that these ranges are created by testing many men without much attention to their relative level of sexual function. Men whose testosterone level is in the lowest 20% of the normal ranges above may not feel much sex drive at all. In my clinical experience as a sex therapist, men with total testosterone readings in the low 400s tend not to have much sexual drive even if they are in fulfilling relationships. Ritter says that even some men in the 600s do not feel that much drive when other things are equal, and he prefers to see numbers in the 700s. Throwing things into further confusion, says Gould, is the fact that sometimes free testosterone will be low when the total testosterone is high and vice versa."

(I have to acknowledge that numbers from different sources slightly contradict each other and unfortunately many sources don't refer to the origins of the data, but I have to say it is extremely hard to search for reliable numbers in the first place! Especially for women and children.)

Now, it is interesting to actually witness these numbers. What you'll see here is that the variance in testosterone levels must be very high within the male population as well as within the female population. Also, it seems that the testosterone levels in any man are way higher than those of any woman (at least 3 times higher for men younger than 50, but on average much more, probably more than 10 times higher). Also interesting is that the levels for male babies are high.

Okay, now compare women again with boys. Women are in the 20-85 ng/dL range or 9-59 ng/dL depending on which source that you use. Young boys of 10 or 11 years old are in the 5-50 ng/dL range or 2-57 ng/dL range depending on which source that you use. And young girls of 10 to 11 years years old are in the 2-42 ng/dL range. Average levels for women are something like 35 ng/dL, 40 ng/dL, 60 ng/dL or 70 ng/dL depending on the source that you use (with the 35 ng/dL the most reliable), and those of prepubescent boys and girls are (slightly?) lower than 30. The testosterone levels of women rise only very little since the age of 10. To reflect again:

That all means that the testosterone levels of women are not that much higher than those of boys aged 10-11!!!!, or to put it in another way, prepubescent children!!!

It surely answers the question why the sex industry is almost totally directed towards men, why there's hardly any porn for women, why women rarely visit male prostitutes, etc... Perhaps that women aren't really that interested in sex. Notice also that according to the sex therapist the men with testosterone levels lower than 400 ng/dL tend to have not much sex drive. Women are surely far below that. So, not much sex drive for women either! And also, according to the urologists we should be looking at free testosterone instead of total testosterone when it comes to libido. In that case the men stand out even more, having free testosterone levels more like 30 times higher than women! Also in free testosterone levels you see that women have levels comparable to 10-11-year-old boys.

But that surely doesn't mean that women don't have sexual feelings at all. I can remember as a child aged 6 that I got slightly aroused by nudy pics. Pictures of nude women. I especially liked the bottoms/behinds/asses of women. I only couldn't place it at that time. I didn't realize that it were sexual feelings. As a child I didn't really bother about sex. Until the age of 11 I was mainly interested in computer games, LEGO, Star Wars etc.... Also I remember that when I became 12 years old that I started fantasizing about women undressing themselves. I thought it was totally weird.

So I conclude, women do have sexual feelings, but only these feelings are far less strong than in men. Women's sexual feelings are probably more comparable to those in children. They have sexual feelings, they get slightly turned on by nudy pics, or even by porn, but women don't really actively pursue sex. Perhaps only intimacy, like kissing and cuddling.

DISCLAIMER:
When women are in love their testosterone levels approximately double. Those of men approximately drop by 40% when they are in love. So, that means that the horniest woman's testosterone level when in love could reach that of the least horny man who happens to be in love too!!! But, only when they are in love. So, perhaps this is the exception; when women are in love they want sex with the man they love. But even in this case, their testosterone levels don't become as high as in the average guy.

And, it seems from some studies that many men visit prostitutes not necessarily because they want sex, but because they want intimacy. I guess another reason why men visit prostitutes a lot more than women do is because it is a lot easier for women to get a guy.

And, there seems to be no linear relationship between testosterone and libido. According to Dr. Thomas G. Travison who analyzed 1632 men aged 40-70: 'libido was significantly associated with testosterone levels. However, the difference in testosterone levels between participants with low libido and those with high libido was small and "inconsequential." '. See the article on 4-men.org (Is Libido and Testosterone Linked? by Drew Voight in 2006?)
http://www.4-men.org/sex-drive/libido-and-testosterone.html
Here's the report:
THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN LIBIDO AND TESTOSTERONE LEVELS IN AGING MEN Travison et al. J Clin Endocrinol Metab .2006; 0: jc.2005-2508v1
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/rapidpdf/jc.2005-2508v1.pdf

The abstract of this report says: "Libido was measured on a 14-point scale assessing self-reported frequency of desire and thoughts/fantasies; "low libido" was defined as a score of less than 7/14. (...) Libido and T[estosterone] displayed a significant association. However, the difference in mean T[estosterone] levels between those subjects with low libido and those without was small; analyses indicated a 3.4 ng/dL (.12 nmol/L) increase in T[otal]T[estosterone] per unit increase in libido." Okay that means that on average the men with the highest libido have 3.4*(14-1)=44,2 ng/dL more testosterone in their blood than men with the lowest libido. On a range of 350-1050 ng/dL for adult men that's not much. So, there's practically no relationship between sex drive and the level of testosterone in someone's blood. I have to take back my words.

Testosterone levels don't seem to affect women also. Here's a study on 1021 women:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/294/1/91
Circulating Androgen Levels and Self-reported Sexual Function in Women
Susan R. Davis, MD, PhD; Sonia L. Davison, MD; Susan Donath, MA; Robin J. Bell, MD, PhD
JAMA. 2005;294:91-96.
I quote: "It has been proposed that low sexual desire and sexual dysfunction are associated with low blood testosterone levels in women. However, evidence to support this is lacking. (...) A total of 1021 individuals were included in the final analysis. No clinically significant relationships between having a low score for any PFSF [Profile of Female Sexual Function] domain and having a low serum total or free testosterone or androstenedione level was demonstrated."

And also, I also have read stories from prostitutes (who had been coerced to work in prostitution!) that they used crack or cocaine to make work easier, and who told that a strange side-effect was that they started to crave for sex with their clients! I guess there's no testosterone in cocaine, so there must be other chemicals which also can increase libido. Perhaps dopamine and endorphins.

But, when I read on the internet (for instance, this article about 'aphrodisiacs' on health.discovery.com, Copyright 2002 Sinclair Intimacy Institute) about the effects of drugs (like cocaine and alcohol) on libido, it seems that drugs doesn't necessarily increase the sex drive but it only takes away inhibitions. So, in the case of the forced prostitutes, that would mean that the basic condition for these women after removal of the context of the situation is that they long for the sex with the men they despise.

So, perhaps that after all, women do naturally have the same sex drive that men have. And perhaps there is no large relationship between sex drive and testosterone. And perhaps it are social inhibitions which make women seem less interested in sex, not low testosterone levels. And drugs like cocaine could take away these inhibitions.

Perhaps that the radical feminists are right in that they believe that sexuality is a social construct. So perhaps it is that society sends the message to women that they shouldn't look at porn pics and shouldn't have sex with lots and lots of guys.

Another explanation is that perhaps indeed women are different sexually. But only the cause is not testosterone. Perhaps women restrain themselves because they run more risks when having sex. They run the risk of becoming pregnant.

Now thinking about it longer; there is another possibility regarding the seemingly small link between testosterone levels and sex drive. It could be that within the domains of men and women seperately there is no large link, but in between these seperate domains perhaps there is. Perhaps that, say, there is no effect when you go from 20 to 80 ng/dL, and no effect when you go from 300 to 1000 ng/dL, but perhaps there is an effect when you go from 80 to 300 ng/dL!!!! That could be an explanation. Perhaps that the effect of the level of testosterone becomes strong above a certain value, say 100 ng/dL, (that is perhaps why the average testosterone level of women in love is 120 ng/dL!) and above that level it doesn't matter anymore how high the testosterone levels are. From that point of view my orignial hypothesis that women generally don't have more sexual feelings than 10-year-old kids is not wrong, except perhaps when women are in love.

I found another explanation for the apparent non-relationship between testosterone and sex drive. I read several times that testosterone levels are not more or less fixed during a longer period. Actually, they fluctuate heavily during one single day. So, that could mean that when researchers let participants fill in a questionnaire about their libido and at the same time measure their testosterone levels, you could have a situation where over a longer period a person has a low libido and at the moment of measuring his testosterone level it is high by coincidence, or the other way around. Perhaps testosterone levels should be measured slightly before or during sex, that could be the most useful moment for a person to have a high testosterone level. Perhaps that the researchers measure the testosterone levels at the wrong moment.

There's more interesting material over here:
Testosterone and male behaviours - Nick Neave and Daryl B. O’Connor describe their research into the complex effects of this hormone (the psychologist, vol 22 no 1 january 2008)
It is well established that testosterone plays a vital role in governing sexual behaviour in humans. Early behavioural evidence comes from studies of hypogonadal men who, due to abnormal gonadal function have low or no circulating testosterone, and as a result exhibit impaired sexual functioning.Once these men receive testosterone replacement therapy, their sexual function is restored to normal (Wang et al., 2000).
So, can increases in circulating testosterone activate changes in aspects of sexual functioning, such as frequency of sexual behaviour and libido? This is a pertinent question in light of the likelihood in the future of a substantial uptake of hormonal male contraceptive methods in sexually active men. A number of previous studies have failed to find any ‘negative’ effects of exogenous testosterone on sexual behaviour, although it has been suggested that suitably sensitive or detailed measures were not employed (e.g. Bagatell et al., 1994). In a comprehensive, double-blind, placebo-controlled, cross-over study (O’Connor et al., 2004), increasing testosterone levels in healthy young men did not significantly increase either the interactional (i.e. the frequency of sexual intercourse) or non-interactional (i.e. libido) components of sexual behaviour.
Part of the explanation for these findings may be that relationship and other social factors have an overriding influence on sexual activity. There are some data that show therapeutic doses of testosterone can enhance sexual arousal when measured under carefully monitored laboratory conditions using a dichotic listening task (Alexander et al., 1997). Nevertheless, the weight of evidence suggests that testosterone administration reliably restores sexual functioning in young and middle-aged men with lower than normal testosterone levels, but has no influence on interactional or non-interactional components of sexual behaviour when hormone levels are raised above normal. We have now turned our attention to exploring the role of declining hormone levels in relation to a myriad of behavioural outcomes in ageing men as part of the European Male Ageing Study (see O’Connor et al., 2008).


So that means that perhaps indeed testosterone has no more effect on sex drive above a certain level. The only funny thing is that this Christina Wang (and others) define these "hypogonadal men" as having a testosterone level of lower than 300 ng/dL, and this actually proves again that women must totally impotent!!!!! See this report by Wang:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/8/2839
Transdermal Testosterone Gel Improves Sexual Function, Mood, Muscle Strength, and Body Composition Parameters in Hypogonadal Men (Christina Wang, Ronald S. Swerdloff, Ali Iranmanesh, Adrian Dobs, Peter J. Snyder, Glenn Cunningham, Alvin M. Matsumoto, Thomas Weber and Nancy Berman the Testosterone Gel Study Group, 2000, The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 85, No. 8 2839-2853)

Finally: there are women who take testosterone to become a man. The effects of it on sex drive are very strong as Raven Kaldera explains (emphases mine):
http://www.ravenkaldera.org/activism/feminist.html
(...) the boy-juice did affect my mind, my emotions, my behavior. It started affecting them within twelve hours of my first shot, and I notice the fluctuation at the end of each two-week shot period, and if I miss a few days or a week. Besides, I know that they're asking about sex....and rage.
If you know anything at all about FTMs [Female to Male], you'll know that the testosterone increases the size of our clitorises a great deal. Mine grew to about the size of the end joint of my thumb and looks just like a miniature penis, complete with foreskin. To my surprise, my orgasms became twice as long and twice as intense. My sex drive skyrocketed - I wanted to do it all the time. It wasn't psychological; it was just that as each bit of T[estosterone] was slowly absorbed into my bloodstream, it affected the spinal ganglia attached to my dick, and made it get hard. It was terribly random, and had no connection to what I was doing at the time - taking out the garbage, riding the bus. Having fairly constant context-irrelevant sexual stimuli going on all the time is not something that women can generally understand or relate to, and I had to find ways to cope with it.
I started with jerking off. I'd never had any shame about masturbation (luckily), but before T it had been something I did once in a while in order to make myself feel good. Now it was something I did two, three, or four times a day to relieve an itch, so to speak. I had to learn to treat it like urinating; when you need to relieve yourself, you don't wait around and hope it'll go away; you go off and deal with it as quickly and efficiently as possible, and go back to what you were doing. I had to learn that having a hard-on was not an excuse for having sex, because there were just too darn many of them. I had to learn ways to think through them and ignore them if jerking off wasn't appropriate; I learned that violent physical activity can relieve them.
I also learned something chilling about my new sexuality - it was far, far more programmable than it used to be. Before T, my sexual interests were fairly static and increased slowly, one new thing at a time. If I didn't like something, I just didn't like it. After T, I discovered that if I could think about something heretofore not sexually interesting during approximately six masturbation-to-orgasm sessions, that item would become a turn-on in and of itself....no matter what it was. I could literally program myself in a Pavlovian manner to be aroused by whatever I wanted. I found this out by accident, after I inadvertently added a few new dishes to my arousal buffet without meaning to. When I realized this, I sort of sat in shock for a while, and then I said to myself, "Boy, you're going to have to be very, very careful from now on."
So in one fell swoop I learned the reasons for all those guys compulsively collecting porn on the Internet. It's not that women don't do it - I've met some who do - it's just that it seems almost par for the course with testosterone, a constant issue that doesn't go away, that you just learn to live with like you learn to live with daily sexual thoughts. Could I lift them out the way that I could insert them? Nope, didn't work that way. I understand the real nature of fetishes now, though; how one can have a mental stimuli without any psychological baggage, lifted clinically away from its emotional context and inserted into one's sexual template, a cold, blank erection that doesn't mean anything more than itself. I think most female researchers wouldn't get that concept because they probably don't have it very often (if at all), and most male researchers wouldn't get it because it's too familiar, the air they breathe and the water they swim in. (...)


So after all, there is a very strong influence by testosterone!!!!! A very strong one.

I go further.

This sodomasochistic lesbian mourns the fact that lesbian couples have a far lower frequency of sex [Nichols, M. (1987). Lesbian sexuality: Issues and developing theory. In The Boston Lesbian Psychologies Collective (Eds.), Lesbian psychologies: Explorations and challenges (pp. 97-125). Urbana: University of Illinois Press.] She refers to research done by Philip Blumstein and Pepper Schwarz [American Couples (New York: William Morrow, 1983)]:
Some of the most startling information about lesbian sexuality has come from a study by sociologists Philip Blumstein and Pepper Schwartz, published as 'American Couples'. These researchers used a large and well-chosen sample and compared heterosexual married, heterosexual unmarried, gay male, and lesbian couples along a number of dimensions including sexuality. They found, for example, that lesbian couples have sex far less frequently than any other type of couple. Gay men have somewhat less sex in their primary relationships than do either type of heterosexual couple; on the other hand, gay males have the highest rates of extramarital sex. This means that lesbians in couple relationships are less sexual as couples and as individuals than anyone else. Only about one-third of lesbians in relationships of two years or longer had sex once a week or more; 47 percent of lesbians in long-term relationships had sex once a month or less. This is in striking contrast, for example, to heterosexual married couples: Two-thirds of these couples had sex once a week or more, and only 15 percent of long-term married couples had sex once a month or less.

Blumstein and Schwartz also report that the lesbians they interviewed preferred nongenital physical contact such as hugging and cuddling to genital sex. However, one-half of lesbians in couples with a low frequency of genital sexual contact said they are dissatisfied with their sexuality. (My guess is that this is the half of the couple that wants sex more than once a month.)


This proves my point once again. Women don't like sex, they like kissing, hugging and cuddling. It has to be noticed by the way that the methods of Blumstein and Schwartz have been questioned because if you ask a lesbian couple about their frequency of having sex they could interpret the question differently. For them having intimate contact is not the same as having sex. So if they say they don't have sex it doesn't mean that they don't have intimate physical contact. But this again proves my point that sex is probably not so important for women in general, intimate physical contact however is.

UPDATE!!!!:

Okay, after pondering a long while, I must admit that there cannot be a relationship between testosterone and sex drive. Because, it doesn't explain the existence of female sex addicts. So after all, you can have a low testosterone level and a high sex drive at the same time. That means sex drive is really a choice. The apparent low sex drive of women must be caused by social factors, I believe women somehow choose to restrain themselves, influenced by norms and values. That leads to the question why men with low testosterone levels have no sex drive? I think that possibly the male body doesn't function very well with these lower levels, and so indirectly this has the effect that their libidos drop. The fact that the female-to-male transsexual got a high sex drive after taking large quantities of testosterone I explain by the fact that she wanted to be sex driven men, that was her wish all along.

UPDATE!:
Now something very interesting about castrated men:
http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/abstract/33/1/16
The Impact of Surgical Castration on Sexual Recidivism Risk Among Sexually Violent Predatory Offenders by Linda E. Weinberger, PhD, Shoba Sreenivasan, PhD, Thomas Garrick, MD and Hadley Osran, MD [J Am Acad Psychiatry Law 33:1:16-36 (2005)]

The research is about what happens with men who are castrated (remember that more 95% of testosterone is produced in the testicles). Such things have been done in several countries in the past (like in Germany during the second world war). It turns out that most men lose their sex drive completely after castration (and also interestingly, for many of these men this drop in libido goes gradually, after a period of several months after castration, as if their brains are changing). About a third can still have intercourse but for most of them only after intense stimulation. And for approximately 10% of the castrated men their sex drives drops only a little bit. That is very interesting, and it leads me to a new hypothesis. Perhaps that testosterone indeed does have a large influence on people's sex drive, but that perhaps for approximately 10% it doesn't, they have a high sex drive regardless of their testosterone levels, high or low, they are immune to it. So perhaps this could explain why some women watch pornography every day. These women are simply the exception. But..... another explanation could be that those 10% of men who keep their sex drives are the proof that testosterone has no direct influence, and that those other 90% lost their sex drive because their bodies got into trouble which causes them to lose their sex drives.

UPDATE!!!!:
A study which shows that giving women (whose ovaries were removed) doses of testosterone boosts their sex drive?:
link to pdf
TRANSDERMAL TESTOSTERONE TREATMENT IN WOMEN WITH IMPAIRED SEXUAL FUNCTION AFTER OOPHORECTOMY by JAN L. S HIFREN and others (2000, The New England Journal of Medicine as published by New England Journal of Medicine)

But after studying the results myself, I would say placebo effect.

And.....

A study which shows that the removal of ovaries doesn't have a significant effect on sexual desire and sexual problems:
link to report
Oophorectomy in Premenopausal Women: Health-Related Quality of Life and Sexual Functioning by Teplin, Vanessa MD; Vittinghoff, Eric PhD; Lin, Feng MS; Learman, Lee A. MD, PhD; Richter, Holly E. PhD, MD; Kuppermann, Miriam PhD, MPH (Obstetrics & Gynecology:
February 2007 - Volume 109 - Issue 2, Part 1 - pp 347-354)

This is interesting, because that means that the hormones produced by the ovaries shouldn't have much of an effect either. That means estrogen and testosterone.

A norwegian report:
link to report
Sexual activity and functioning in women who underwent salpingo-oophorectomy to prevent hereditary breast ovarian cancer. by T. M. Michelsen, A. A. Dahl, C. Trope, A. Dørum; Oslo University Hospital, Rikshospitalet, Oslo, Norway; The Norwegian Radium Hospital, Oslo University Hospital, Oslo, Norway (2010)
Conclusions: Women who had undergone risk-reducing salpingo-oophorectomy reported higher levels of sexual activity, higher levels of sexual pleasure but also higher levels of sexual discomfort compared to controls from the general Norwegian population. Sexual discomfort could represent an area for medical intervention in women who have undergone risk- reducing salpingo-oophorectomy to prevent hereditary breast/ovarian cancer.

And a book that seems to answer all the questions:
The science of orgasm (by Barry R. Komisaruk, Ph.D., Carlos Beyer-Flores, Ph.D., Beverly Whipple, Ph.D., R.N., 2006)

Had I found this book earlier on, it would have saved me a lot of effort. It concludes many of the same things that I have concluded above. This books also concludes, like me, that there could be different types of people who respond differently to hormones. Perhaps some people could have a high sex drive with no hormones at all. The book also says that estrogen has no influence on the sex drive of women (contrary to many other species than humans).
It refers to this report:
Sherwin, B. B., Gelfand, M. M., & Brender, W. 1985. Androgen enhances sexual motivation in females: a prospective, cross-over study of sex steroid administration in the surgical menopause. Psychosomatic Medicine 47:339–351.
and this one:
Utian, W. H. 1975. Effect of hysterectomy, oophorectomy and estrogen therapy on libido. International Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology 84:4314–4315.

That would mean that testosterone is the most important libido hormone in humans. And we all know that women have the same amounts of that as 10 year old children. But perhaps, they don't need it, like men.

Have to read this one yet:
http://www.csom.umn.edu/Assets/71520.pdf
Is There a Gender Difference in Strength of Sex Drive? Theoretical Views, Conceptual Distinctions, and a Review of Relevant Evidence by Roy F. Baumeister, Kathleen R. Catanese, and Kathleen D. Vohs (Department of Psychology, Case Western Reserve University) Personality and Social Psychology Review Copyright © 2001 by 2001, Vol. 5, No. 3, 242–273

Here a study on transsexuals (male to female [MtF] and female to male[FtM], FT=free testosterone)
Effects of Cross-Sex Hormone Treatment on Emotionality in Transsexuals ( Ditte Slabbekoorn, Stephanie H.M. Van Goozen, Louis J.G. Gooren, Peggy T. Cohen-Kettenis, The international journal of transgenderism, Volume 5, Number 3, July - September 2001)
A conclusion: FtMs experienced more sexual feelings than they had expected and showed higher levels of these feelings than MtFs after hormone treatment. In FtMs, sexual activity, as measured by the frequency of masturbation and sex involving a partner, was indirectly related to testosterone, in that sexual activity occurred most frequently seven to ten days after the FT-peak. As has been suggested by others (Bancroft, 1984; Van Goozen et al., 1997), testosterone in biological women could have a delayed effect on sexual activity. Surprisingly, in contrast with sexual activity, sexual interest did not vary along the hormone cycle.
Okay, so another new thing, testosterone doesn't work immediately but with a delay!

And here another female-to-male transgender report:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/reprint/92/9/3470.pdf
Long-Term Administration of Testosterone Undecanoate Every 3 Months for Testosterone Supplementation in Female-to-Male Transsexuals (by Andreas Mueller, Franklin Kiesewetter, Helge Binder, Matthias W. Beckmann, and Ralf Dittrich, The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 92(9):3470–3475, Printed in U.S.A. Copyright © 2007 by The Endocrine Society)
A conclusion: The female-to-male transsexuals reported a considerable increase in their libido during the study period, and the patients were satisfied partly with their clitoral growth, which was considerable (...)

And another report:
The Gender Similarities Hypothesis (Janet Shibley Hyde, American Psychologist, September 2005)

Janet Hyde defends what she calls the gender similarities hypothesis which says that men and women are far more alike than they differ. The differences are generally very small. Except in some key areas, that's physical strength, physical aggression and sexuality. That's where men really differ from women.

This one is more specific about sexuality, and it is written by the same writer:
on pubmed
A meta-analytic review of research on gender differences in sexuality, 1993-2007.
Petersen JL, Hyde JS. (Psychol Bull. 2010 Jan;136(1):21-38)

What does it say? That as predicted by the gender similarities hypothesis, most gender differences in sexual attitudes and behaviors were small. Exceptions were masturbation incidence, pornography use, casual sex, and attitudes toward casual sex, which all yielded medium effect sizes in which male participants reported more sexual behavior or permissive attitudes than female participants.

And this leads me to believe that there cannot really be a strong direct influence of testosterone levels on sex drive. Perhaps it's cultural after all. But, to safe my original claim (that women are as sexless as young children), what could be true is that men and women have different ideas about what "sex" means. Sex is an ambiguous concept. Perhaps that for many women sex means: tenderness, caressing, kissing, hugging, stroking, loving, intimacy .... And for men sex could mean: fucking, blowjob, porn, cunnilingus, horny, sperm, naughty ...... So, completely different concepts. So when Janet Hyde says that men and women don't differ that much regarding sexuality, that possibly means that men and women value their own concepts of what sex really means with the same strength. Yes, women like tenderness as much as men like horniness.

I found this article about the observation that there's no correlation between what women feel in their heads and how their bodies physically respond. Women get physically aroused by monkey-sex!! Their vaginas start to lubricate, but they say they don't get excited. The hypothesis is that female sexual response is purely a mechanism to prevent injuries in a woman's vagina. Read this:
What Do Women Want? (By DANIEL BERGNER, New York Times, January 22 2009)

This article is about Meredith Chivers' study in which she tries to find differences between men and women by attaching their genitals to measuring devices and letting them watch bonobo porn, naked men, naked women, men having sex with men, women having sex with women, and men having sex with women. While men reacted in a category specific way, women responded to everything except .... naked men!!!! Gay men typically only respond to naked men and gay porn. Heterosexual men respond to heterosexual and lesbian porn. Women also responded to bonobo porn, contrary to men. But what the women said they found arousing was very different from what the devices measured. For men there is a strong correlation, but not for women!

And this proves that women aren't really sexual at all. For them it is purely physical. Why the heck aren't they attracted to men? You cannot judge as an outsider what she feels by looking at her body. With men you can do this better. If he has an erection, he likely is aroused (sometimes not, especially among children and after waking up).

This is a very interesting subject which I find really cool and I'm going to delve deeper into it, so I'll continue to add information to this post.

4 comments:

Anonymous said...

I really like the Jewish attitude to sex. I'll quote from a site "Sex should only be experienced in a time of joy. Sex for selfish personal satisfaction, without regard for the partner's pleasure, is wrong and evil. A man may never force his wife to have sex. A couple may not have sexual relations while drunk or quarreling. Sex may never be used as a weapon against a spouse, either by depriving the spouse of sex or by compelling it. It is a serious offense to use sex (or lack thereof) to punish or manipulate a spouse.
Sex is the woman's right, not the man's. A man has a duty to give his wife sex regularly and to ensure that sex is pleasurable for her. He is also obligated to watch for signs that his wife wants sex, and to offer it to her without her asking for it. The woman's right to sexual intercourse is referred to as onah, and it is one of a wife's three basic rights (the others are food and clothing), which a husband may not reduce. "
You've never had a date so you're resigned to talk abut women wanting sex as a physical urge brought on by hormones. Really you should be glad that women are not that vacant. Thank God that women use their intelligence and are not slaves to their sex drive.

Donkey said...

Probably sex for women does mean something completely different than for men. Perhaps women like the kissing and the cuddling more. Laying in a man's arms, just like the sexologist said.

If one day I meet a woman who wants to have sex I'll do just that: kissing and cuddling. Nothing more.

Anonymous said...

Most women are designed to be careful about sex. It's how it ought to be, in my humble opinion.
Sex isn't merely exercise or fun. It's a way of getting children AND it's a way of bonding in a relationship. It makes sense that a woman should be careful about the partner she chooses.
Would you really want a prostitute mothering your child?
Or would you want a woman who consciously or unconsciously chooses you as the potential father of her children? Children who will appreciate that they were created in a loving relationship.
Sex is something a man has to realise is done TOGETHER.

Donkey said...

First find a girlfriend!