Monday, September 19, 2005

My story: part 2

Continued from.....

Back to index

September 28, 2005

When you start reading about prostitution you’ll immediately notice there’s a big and emotional war going on between advocates and opponents of prostitution. On one side are the religious fundamentalists. And obviously they are against prostitution. But to my big surprise they are joined by radical feminists!!!(however, not all feminists are against prostitution) That’s funny because feminists support the right of self-determination of women over their own body. For instance, the right of a woman to kill her own unborn child. You would expect they would also support the right to sell sex. But they don’t see it that way. They don’t belief a woman could ever voluntarily sell sex. No woman wants to have sex with 10 men a day. They see prostitution as paid rape. The client subcontract the violence that’s necessary to keep the woman in prostitution to the pimp. A country like Sweden takes the radical-feminist position. Men who visit prostitutes in Sweden are liable to punishment. Brothels are forbidden.

The ones who ‘support’ prostitution are the persons I call the ‘libertarians’. They believe it’s nobody’s business to interfere in a deal between two persons in which they both agree. If two persons want to have sex, and they both agree that one pays the other for it, why should people bother? They believe that the abuses associated with prostitution - such as human trafficking – can by contributed to (for instance) poverty, illegal immigration and prostitution being illegal. Many poor women want to work abroad, but because the borders are closed they seek help from criminals to cross the border. That makes them extremely vulnerable because the criminals could turn out to be human traffickers. The solution would be to make immigration legal. When prostitution is illegal prostitutes have to rely on pimps to defend themselves against the police and aggressive clients. They don’t dare to go to the police because they are afraid they will be arrested, which makes them extra vulnerable. Furthermore, they are forced to work ‘underground’ where aid-workers can’t reach them.

The radical feminists immediately respond to that by pointing out that for instance in Australia (where in some districts prostitution is legal), the abuses associated with prostitution didn’t decrease. The prostitutes don’t want to go to the police anyway because they are afraid it will be revealed to the outside world that they work as prostitutes. They also point out that for every legal brothel in Australia (in the districts where prostitution is legal), there are four illegal brothels. Furthermore, more trafficked women are found in the legal brothels than in the illegal ones.

At first I supported the ‘libertarians’, but with some doubt. The theory is good. Everbody should do anything he/she likes, as long as it’s consensual.

Why I read so many thing about prostitution was because I wanted to know a place where there were no trafficked women. I know that in street-prostitution there are many trafficked women. And to my dismay I had to hear of a window-prostitute that many window-prostitutes are essentially being trafficked too. In literature this is confirmed many times. A Christian aid-organisation called the ‘Scharlaken Koord’ has many contacts with the window-prostitutes in the RLD of Amsterdam. What they say is shocking. Slightly more than half of the prostitutes hands over all their income to their pimp!!!! What’s more horrifying, nearly all (87%) Dutch window-prostitutes have been introduced into prostitution by so-called ‘loverboys’. These pimps engage with women with the goal of manipulating them into prostitution. These pimps could say to a girl who is in love with him, that they have huge debts and need money quickly. ‘Together’ they find a solution. The pimp could carefully bring forward the idea of working as a prostitute. The girl who is totally devoted to him, will agree. That’s basically the main route into prostitution for most Dutch window-prostitutes. Most loverboys are of Moroccan or Turkish descent.

I immediately concluded it would be better if I didn’t visit window-prostitutes anymore. Approximately 30 percent of the window-prostitutes is Dutch. Of all prostitutes in the Netherlands 20 percent work behind windows. Almost half the prostitutes in the Netherlands are Dutch. There’s lots of information about street-prostitutes and window-prostitution. But not about other forms of prostitution. when you read about prostitution in clubs, you’ll hear bad stories and positive stories. There are horrendous brothels completely filled with trafficked women. And there are good brothels where all prostitutes more or less work voluntarily. But it’s very difficult to find information about which brothels are good brothels and which brothels are bad brothels. When prostitutes talk about the brothels in which they have worked, they rarely mention the name and location of the brothel.

Xaviera Hollander, a Dutch ex-prostitute once owned brothels in New York. She wrote a book about it, “The Happy Hooker”. This book is supposed to shed a positive light on prostitution, but actually it’s a horror-story. She did a suicide attempt, was blackmailed twice by two rivalling gangs and she lost a large proportion of her income to a man who she thought to be her lover. She sometimes mentions other prostitutes. And even in the brothels in which she worked there were women who were pimp-controlled, although most were not. Keep in mind that Xaviera Hollander was a high-class prostitute, in high-class brothels. When she owned brothels herself she tells about doing business with pimps. She talks about it as if it is the most normal thing in the world, no strange thing about it. However she didn’t like the pimp-controlled girls, not because they essentially were trafficked, but because they caused trouble. At on point she writes about a pimp-controlled girl who copied her client-database. She was really angry about it. Xaviera Hollander also reveals that most prostitutes who didn’t work for madams had a pimp!!!

Months went on and I still couldn’t find the right information. I decided for myself that if I don’t know who the real prostitutes are and who are the trafficked women, it would be better never to visit prostitutes. Hey, that’s funny. Isn’t that an entirely different position!!! It doesn’t matter if there are prostitutes who do their work voluntarily, as long as you don’t know who the real prostitutes are, it’s better not to visit a prostitute! And I figured out that the pro-prostitution-advocates are wrong when they say human trafficking is caused by poverty or illegal immigration. How come that also so many Dutch prostitution are trafficked? Isn’t that because there are too few women who want to do that job? Aren’t the radical feminist essentially right when they say no woman wants to have sex with 10 men a day? Because there are so few women who want to work as prostitutes, and because so many men want to visit prostitutes, the demand is much higher than the ‘supply’(of prostitutes). That means criminals can make a lot of money when they force or manipulate women into prostitution. That’s the real cause of human trafficking.

Although I decided I wouldn’t visit prostitutes anymore, it must be said that prostitution IS an interesting subject! I kept on reading.

Then…….I stumbled upon a blog of a Dutch ex-prostitute (Jeanette). She has worked in two what we call in the Netherlands ‘privé-huizen’. Those are essentially clubs without a bar. What she says about the other prostitutes she worked with is shocking:
I have met many girls who were forced to work in this world [of prostitution]. The majority were forced. Either by their partner, boyfriend, or their addiction. The strange thing was that the ones who worked for a pimp always pretended he was their boyfriend. Well, I believe some really believed that and that they didn’t realise in what kind of unhealthy relation they were in, but I am amazed about how these girls delude themselves. I realise that many women who enter this world are forced to stay there because they trust nobody and therefore nobody can help them to step out of this.

[A March 16th 2009 update: Jeanette started working again in prostitution and notices that there is a lot less force in prostitution nowadays and that women start working in prostitution for more positive reasons]

I was infuriated. So, it is true. Not only in the window-brothels most woman are forced, but also in the clubs!!!!!!

She also mentioned that most prostitutes worked extremely long hours, 14 hours a day, six days a week. They slept in the brothels, and they had an extremely unhealthy lifestyle. They basically ate junkfood every day. (Oops, a misinterpretation. She never actually said MOST women worked long hours and sleep in the brothels. SOME women do.)

At that moment, I totally turned against prostitution. Prostitution sucks. And those fucking feminists are right after all!!!! Those stupid clients are to blame!! Without clients there would be no forced prostitution. Prostitution….should be PROHIBITED!!!! Just like in Sweden.

I asked Jeanette, how many prostitutes were actually forced and how many were on drugs. She said 9 out of 10 were forced, and half of them were on drugs. But she stressed that she had only seen a tiny proportion of that world. We misinterpreted each-other. When I talk about forced prostitution, I only mean forced by other persons, not forced by circumstances. She didn’t agree with me that prostitution should be prohibited. I said when humane men don’t visit prostitutes anymore, there would be far less human trafficking. She countered that the inhumane men would still go, and that would be bad for the prostitutes.

Shortly thereafter a government report was released, done by professor Bovenkerk. The authorities of Amsterdam ordered the research. They wanted to know if there really was a ‘loverboy’-problem in Amsterdam. The researchers made a shocking discovery. They discovered the brothel-owners didn’t do anything to prevent pimp-controlled women from working in their brothels. Prostitutes they spoke with, revealed that it is nearly impossible for a prostitute to work independently. Rarely a prostitute works without a ‘man’. Those who try to work for themselves, cannot offer resistance to men who force themselves upon them.

I became even more angry. In my anger I totally missed some key points of this report. Namely, the researchers concluded that although many prostitutes work for a ‘man’, only a tiny proportion of them is forced. Furthermore, pimping in the escort-industry and in the clubs is extremely rare. They referred to another report in which some researcher tried to track down on forced prostitution in clubs and in the escort-industry. They found...…. nothing. They only found a few who worked for a pimp. Bovenkerk even said that there are "only" a 100 violent pimps in Amsterdam. When you carefully estimate these pimps have on average 3 girls working for them, there are "only" 300 forced prostitutes in Amsterdam. Not many when you compare that number to a total number of more than 4000 prostitutes working in Amsterdam. (Another misinterpretation: Bovenkerk only speaks about Dutch male pimps. Actually, most human traffickers are foreign [~60%] and many human traffickers are actually women [~25%])

This report is actually sensational because it totally contradicts the estimates of the national rapporteur on human trafficking, Anna Korvinus, who estimates that at least 20 percent of the prostitutes in the Netherlands is a victim of human trafficking. Even ex-prostitute Metje Blaak who works for the Red Thread (‘rode draad’, a labor-union for prostitutes), once estimated that only a few prostitutes really work voluntarily. She estimates 60 percent has been sexually abused, 30 is incited by her boyfriend (to work as a prostitute), and 10 percent really works voluntarily. What’s important, she actually states that those ‘loverboys’ are real.

When you read a lot about prostitution you’ll constantly stumble upon those contradictions. I believe it’s because it’s difficult to figure out what is the exact role of the boyfriend of a prostitute. Is he a pimp or not? If the boyfriend of the pimp is violent, is he a pimp? Is that human trafficking? Is the violent boyfriend of a nurse a pimp too? The prostitute often doesn’t realise in what kind of situation she is. She believes her relationship with her pimp is serious, but in reality for her boyfriend it’s all about the money. Actually she works ‘voluntarily’ as a prostitute. She decides to stay with him. Therefore one researcher could say that this prostitute works voluntarily as a prostitute, and that her boyfriend is just that, her ‘boyfriend’. Another researcher could see that differently, and sees it as human trafficking. That perhaps is the reason why researchers could come up with these contradictory results.

But I totally missed what Bovenkerk said about pimping being rare. I thought Bovenkerk meant that nearly all prostitutes where forced or manipulated by their boyfriend, and that they were blackmailed by them when they didn’t have a pimp.

I believed, it was time for action.

There is a big Dutch internet-site for men who visit prostitutes (hookers.nl). They give reviews about the prostitutes they visit, and chat with each-other about their hobby. Almost 4000 prostitutes in the Netherlands are reviewed.

It is time for war!!!!

I decided I would tell these dirty bastards the truth.

I used the Bovenkerk-report to prove to them most of the prostitutes are forced by pimps.

To my astonishing surprise the first person to respond was actually a prostitute herself. She said that what I said was total nonsense, because she has worked for years in the sex-industry and she works voluntarily and ALL the women she knows do it voluntarily too.

Then, something funny happened. The administrator of that site, recalled what Mariska Majoor once said to him. Mariska Majoor is an ex-prostitute who owns a store in the RLD of Amsterdam. She also gives information to tourists about the RLD. She tries to put forward a positive image of prostitution. According to the administrator she told him that at least 70 percent of the prostitutes in the RLD has a ‘dubious boyfriend’!!!(Later I have met her in real life, she denies she has ever said that to him, she puts the real number at 20 percent) He said many girls who work for a ‘loverboy’ deny that for themselves.

Then, one client actually confirmed what Mariska Majoor, supposedly had put forward. He said 70 percent of the prostitutes he visited in the The Hague had a ‘dubious boyfriend’ too!!!!

Understand what’s happening? A prostitutes totally denies the theory that most of the prostitutes are forced, and states that nearly all the prostitutes she knows chose to be there. The administrator and a client, confirm the theory.

That was the start of an energetic discussion. I explained to them that the prostitute I visited in the RLD of Amsterdam said to me many girls there had a pimp. I said I couldn’t differentiate between a forced prostitute and a voluntary prostitute because they all look very normal. That’s why it would be better to stop visiting prostitutes after all. The same client who said that 70 percent of the prostitutes he visited had a dubious boyfriend, confirmed what I said, he couldn’t differentiate between those prostitutes and the ones who worked for themselves. But if he found out, he stopped visiting ‘those’ prostitutes. I said men shouldn’t visit prostitutes and that those men (who visit prostitutes) are rapists. Obviously, they called me a ‘moral crusader’ and a moralizer.

I could gather some interesting information. I divide the prostitute-clients into two groups.
1. The deniers. They simply don’t believe human trafficking is a big deal. Often they boast that they can perfectly ‘see’ when a prostitute is forced or not. They don’t ‘see’ many forced prostitutes. Therefore human trafficking is rare.
2. The ones who acknowledge there is a human trafficking problem, only they don’t see it as their responsibility to do something about it. They'll argue that many products you buy in the store are created by wage-slaves in third-world-countries. For instance, most of the chocolate you eat is produced by slaves. Does anybody feel guilty when eating chocolate? Of course not!!! Then why should we bother about the prostitutes?

Only later the mystery about the contradictory statements from the prostitute and the clients was resolved. It turns out that those clients who said many girls they visit have a pimp mainly visit window-prostitutes. The prostitute who said she rarely met a forced prostitute was an older prostitute (age 36) who works in clubs where only older prostitutes work. Then why did Jeanette(the ‘blog’-prostitute) meet so many forced prostitutes in the clubs she worked? Because, the prostitutes she saw were very young (average age ~22), and mostly of foreign descent.

I am more careful now with analyzing data. But it remains difficult. Now I know that victims of human trafficking and ‘loverboys’ are usually very young. The average age of a trafficked woman is approximately 23 years. The average age of ALL prostitutes is approximately 28 years. That means there is a wide gap op 5 years in between those average ages. I have carefully analyzed 25 stories of Dutch victims of human trafficking. I turns out that many of those victims are put to work in window-prostitution, ~50 percent. Only a small percentage is put to work in clubs, ~16 percent. Only a tiny proportion of the Dutch prostitutes work behind windows, ~13 percent. Most of the Dutch prostitutes work in clubs, ~60%. That means that pimping is indeed rare among Dutch prostitutes who work in clubs. Most of the prostitutes who work in clubs are Dutch(~60%). Professor Bovenkerk is right after all!!!

Of the many clients I encountered, only two clients basically agreed with me. One client visited prostitutes in Germany, in the so-called FKK-clubs (sauna-clubs). At first it was paradise on Earth, but slowly he realised the brothels were full of East-European victims of human trafficking. He even noticed that the pimps entered the brothels as clients to keep an eye on the women. He sometimes saw new young girls enter the brothels. At first, they looked frightened and insecure. But after a couple of months they were transformed into professional prostitutes, described by many clients as one of the best. He was surprised how well these girls could fool the clients. Those girls seemed very willing!!!! When I first visited this forum, he still visited those clubs. Only later on he decided it would be better to stop.

I again have to stress that the perception that a client somehow can ‘see’ that a prostitute is trafficked is a myth. Many people believe that. But this is not true. Prostitutes are entertainers. They make the client believe he is the best person in bed, even when they hate their job.

Another client said to me he thought a short while ago human trafficking was not a big deal, until he had an internet-connection. Now he rarely visits prostitutes, only the ones of who he is certain they are not forced. Usually older house-wives who want to make some extra money.

The knowledge that Dutch prostitutes in clubs are rarely trafficked, has changed my opinion again. A short while ago I decided I would visit prostitutes again. I carefully looked at the reviews of that forum, and selected some brothels which I thought would be okay. But only a couple of days ago I found out a brothel which was high on my list, employs trafficked women too………

The struggle continues…..

Previous part

Back to index

58 comments:

Clumsy ;) said...

Hi !

The unbelievable has happened... A search-engine picked up on your post! =)

I'm actually in the middle of writing a paper for university about prostitution (but instead, i'm reading blogs...).

Like you said - no-one can explain this phenomenon. Everything that has been said about it is true, but no such claim can explain the full scope of the phenomenon.

Also, I have to say it was incredibly interesting and, lacking a better word, touching, a guy admitting visiting a prostitute, and telling his thoughts about it. Especially how your point of view changed and became humanistic. I take my hat off to you for the honesty.

Keep writing!

- Clumsy

Donkey said...

You cannot believe how happy I am!!!!

Life is useful after all!!!

I was frantically translating articles from Dutch into English. And I thought, these American people are so nice. They all believe my blog is so beautiful, and it would be a nice thing if I visit their blog too!!!!!

Obviously I am a respectful person. And I visited their blogs. Slowly I realised the ´other´ bloggers where actually spambots.

That....was a start of a big depression.......

But...then YOU came along, it makes life worth living.

I think I will restart my hobby again!!!! Translating articles....

Hmmmmm....

Like Stimpy says..

Happy happy joy joy
Happy happy joy
Happy happy joy joy
Happy happy joy
Happy happy joy joy
Happy happy joy
Happy happy joy joy
Happy happy joy

Clumsy ;) said...

Dear Donkey,

Unfortunately, I haven't had the chance to read those articles you've worked so hard on translating, cos, like i said, I'm a bit short on time right now.

However, personally, what I'd like better is see some stuff YOU wrote. It's SO much more interesting than articles. Personal experiences and impressions is what makes your posts worthwhile, in my opinion.
So keep writing!!! You can translate articles, too, but keep writing! =)

- Clumsy

Donkey said...

Oh joy.

Clumsy ;) said...

I'm back. Finished my paper. =)))))

comments on second part:


You wrote -
"I asked Jeanette...When I talk about forced prostitution, I only mean forced by other persons, not forced by circumstances..."

I DISAGREE!!!

Speaking of those women you say choose to do it - But like you've said yourself, no woman wants to have sex with 10 men a day. They don't enjoy it, they all put on a show for the client. Why do they do it then? Money. Right. But you suppose that since there's no pimp, loverboy, trafficking etc situation then it's ok, it's her own freewill choice. I'd like to claim otherwise.

Freewill choice is an illusion, a false consciousness if you will. These women supposedly look at their circumstances (that you dismiss as irrelevant) and figure that this is their best option, so they "choose" it. What's wrong with that? What's wrong is that the social order placed them in such position that this is their best option! I mean, if this really is a freewill choice and as a legitimate work as any other, than the same % of women from each social class would choose this profession. But the reality isn't such, is it... There are hardly any bourgeoisie women working as prositutes. Most of the prostitutes are poor women, whose choice of work and education was limited in the first place, so how is this a freewill choice?
Also, another fact is that among the prostitutes themselves, girls who come from a more established background tend to work on the more prestige side of the prostitution industry, whereas the poorest girls work as street prostitutes.

And all those liberals and pro-"freewill")prostitution, if you ask them whether they'd want their wife/sister/daughter etc working as prostitutes, what would they say?...

So I have a huge problem when you say circumstances don't matter. Circumstances force certain women to make certain choices, or even, they might feel there is no other choice.

Donkey said...

There are hardly any bourgeoisie women working as prositutes. Most of the prostitutes are poor women, whose choice of work and education was limited in the first place, so how is this a freewill choice?

True….but…..

Without money, you can’t live. They are grown-up people and if they choose to make money by offering sex, then that’s their ‘rational’ choice.

The only problem is that in reality a large proportion of the prostitutes are slaves. Obviously there are a lot of free prostitutes, but there are a lot of involuntary prostitutes too!!!!

I am a very conservative person, I see having sex with a person who is forced as rape. As simple as that.

It’s practically impossible for a client to distinguish between a forced prostitute and a free prostitute. I have read dozens of books and reports about prostitution, and I still don’t know where to go!!!!! I’ve read about a prostitute who said that in EVERY brothel there are women who are forced by their boyfriends. And the brothel-owners look the other way.

In my opinion, when a prostitute-client loves peoples, he could never visit a prostitute. He would just be too scared. But that’s what the liberals/libertarians/pro-prostitution-mafia don’t understand.

A solution for the client could be by saying that lots of ‘products’ are manufactured by slaves in third-world countries. Nobody feels guilty when he/she walks on Nike-shoes manufactured by child-labourers in India. Then why should we bother about a prostitute when we visit one?

I’ve heard that a lot, but I think only a monster could walk with a big erection through a red-light-district full of trafficked women.

And you know what the funny thing is? I’ve talked with many prostitutes on the internet about this subject. Yes, they see many of their colleagues are forced by pimps, but they absolutely don’t blame the clients. Even one girl who was forced by a pimp in the past, didn’t want to blame the clients. She wondered what I really bothered about.

And you said many prostitutes are poor women. True. Funny thing is that the ‘loverboys’ recruit mainly among Dutch girls from middle-class families. I’ve seen reports. 20 percent of the trafficked women weren’t poor. Their standard of living was above the subsistence level. Another 40 percent was equal at the subsistence level, and another 40 percent below level of subsistence.

(by the way, what did you say in your paper?)

Anonymous said...

hi donkey,

nice blog, thanks for sharing...

i was looking on the subject of human trafficking and illegal prostitution for research and it came out with your blog, which i am very interested in also. Eventhough it has been quite awhile since your last post, but thanks once again.

well, to add to the discussion from the last comment you put in, you should put one more factor to the lead of illegal prostitution you would probably want to put it into account, which is the rebellion and way of living.

i am not sure whether it is relevant or not with the country you put on your research, but for some countries which i am originated from one of them. The cultural restriction prohibit young women to premarital sex, which obviously too conservative for most young women nowadays. They crossed the line, and ended up on the street the very next day thinking they will marry their boyfriends, which at the end lured them to brothels.

lack of sex educations among conservative families lead them to deep trouble later on in life for young women.

But to my conclusion, there are too many social factors to consider, especially when you deal with the real people. Some of them accepted it as their 'fate', some of them had very lack of chance to get out from the circle and some of them went through moral dilemma.

Well, thank once again....

and keep writing...

Office Worker

Donkey said...

Well, uh, yes, but I didn't look into the motives of prostitutes in the first place.

Only, thought about forced/voluntary. The dictum goes that when a person is poor then that person still has the right to work in the sex industry. So motives are not important.

But I wonder; I recently read about a discussion on "gray rape". They mean the gray area between forced and voluntary sex. But then the end conclusion must be that there is no gray area. One voluntarily has sex, or one has not, the latter is called rape.

From that point of view any tiny bit of force (even poverty) that brings a person into prostitution, should make the sex in prostitution rape. That would mean that basically all prostitution is forced prostitution. Except for the tiny middle-class/rich minority of prostitutes who have absolute control over their situation.

Anonymous said...

Hi

A very interesting blog, it has certainly got me thinking and I loved following your path of reason. There are some elements to your argument I am less convinced by though. I would say a high percentage of people work in an occupation that by your definition would be against their will. I suspect most people do what they do primarily for the wage that they earn and not for a sense of job satisfaction. it is the minority who have an occupation which they enjoy. We all need to pay our rent or our mortgage or put our kids through school and while somewhere along the line the decision to follow a particular path may have been entered into freely, for most people it is the context of the need to make an income. Once we are rely on that income and build our lives and the lives of our dependents on the assumption of that income we become locked into the path even if we tire of our hate our job.

A person who has made a choice to become a prostitute, without threat or intimidation, even if they don't enjoy the occupation, has chosen freely. If the motivation for their choice is their love for a cynical seducer who is using them it is still a choice freely made... At least as freely as the person who makes the choice to work all hours on multiple low paid jobs just to send their kids to a good school, or the person who choses to stick at a job they hate just to keep paying the mortgage, even though they feel trapped by it. I am not suggesting any of these situations are good; or that those involved don't suffer; or that there is an equivalence in level of suffering between these 3 examples. Just that the choice was free. Someone who does something against their will under threat of violence is not entering into a choice in the same way.

It seems to me that it devalues your argument if all prostitution is seen as forced and therefore rape. If I go and see my accountant and he tells me that he hates his job, but he needs the money and then I ask him to continue to do my accounts would I be guilty of assault by "forcing" him to do something he doesn't want to? Sorry to use the flippant comparison but I wanted to make a really obvious example to illustrate my point

Donkey said...

Yes it is a very difficult issue. Now that I'm thinking about more often, one can even place question-marks on non-paid sex. How many women have sex just to please their husbands or boyfriends? Do they enjoy it?

You often hear that many women do not. They just see it as their duty as a wife. Even if the husband wants to have sex in the middle of the night, he wakes her up and she goes along with it. That's a sort of marital rape.

That makes you wonder. I never had a romantic relationship with a woman or even a one-night-stand. What would be the situation if I actually manage to court a girl and kiss her. One day I go to her place, or she to mine, and I want to have sex with her. I have no clue if she REALLY wants to have sex with me, or if she just wants to please me and go through the motions with deep inner revulsion. Okay, she could still be in love with me, but in reality hate sex.

I just .... raped her.

Difficult.

muttongeoff said...

Except I don't think you have described rape. If she consents then it is not rape, even if she finds you repulsive :) If she says no and you force yourself upon her then sure... it's rape, but if she lies to you and says she wants to when in reality she doesn't, then it is just an error of judgement on her part.

I looked for a dictionary definition:

1. the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.

2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.


It is the forcing by someone else which makes it rape.

The difficult question arises when there is cohersion from a third party.. a pimp. In this situation the girl may be forced but I feel uncomfortable about describing the client as rapist unless the client specifically knows there has been a third party forcing the girl to do this. From a legal point of view the client may or may not technically be guilty of rape ( I don't know) but natural justice would suggest it is the pimp who is the guilty party. I am sure there are situations where a client my suspect the girl is there against her will, in which case he would be a party to the crime, but if the girl appeared to be self motivated then I don't feel he is.

In the case of a girl choosing a career as a prostitute, if she is not forced directly by another person, even if she feels forced through circumstance, I think it would be wrong to describe that sex as rape... It would just devalue the word.

Like all things in life nothing is ever black and white. Real situations have particular complexities, but as a principal I feel the client must believe or suspect there to be force, or the threat of force directly related to the girls presense there that day to be a guilty party. Otherwise the guilt lies with the pimps.

Donkey said...

Yes, a very complex issue. It is also difficult to determine if something that is morally wrong should also be prohibited or not. I think it is very wrong just to have sex with a girl and then throw her aside, even if it meant more to her. Should it be prohibited? Nah, too harsh.

In prostitution things are many times not clear. Many prostitutes who are forced by pimps don't show that to the client. From the point of view of the client visiting such a prostitute could be a very friendly tender loving experience for him. I could imagine that a person could visit hundreds of prostitutes without realizing anything at all. It would be very unfair to punish such a person. But I think some awareness making would not be a bad idea.

Perhaps some horror stories would scare them off.

Too bad the world of prostitution is so complex.

Anonymous said...

I am an ordinary woman, and can only say that I agree with the idea that prostitution is a physically and psychologically damaging thing for a woman.

I agree with Clumsy that " Freewill choice" to be a prostitute is an illusion.

I think that prostitution is also damaging for the men who use them. How can men treat women in a respectful way when they consider it alright to buy physical intimacy? It's treating sex as a phyical urge like the need to do a poo, or as a habit like brushing your teeth every morning, instead of an expression of mutual trust and affection. That can't be good for a man's attitude towards women. I believe that such a man wouldn't be able to experience the rich experience of true friendship with women. Perhaps he wouldn't be capable of being a good father or husband.

Anonymous said...

Hi, I think prostitution is a profession just as any other. If people sell products of their mind, why wouldn't they sell their body? Of course, the problem is in forcing women to do it.
You say that no woman wants to have sex with 10 men a day. Your point is no woman likes this job. But tell me something, how many of us love what we do? How many people work in an office under stressful conditions? How many celebrities go crazy for being pressured by media? A lot of us have annoying bosses. But we all work for money and so do prostitutes. Since we are guys, we might not understand the way women think and feel. I am not neglecting that there are abused prostitutes but I can't say those who work there by free will don't enjoy their job. Being a prostitute is a much easier job than most of them. Of course, under the condition that there is no violence or any kind of forcing.
Most of us men find it disgusting to have sex with ugly, old or fat ladies but I think women feel different about having sex with ugly, old or fat men especially when we're talking money. The biggest problem lies in disrespecting and mistreating them.
That's why prostitution should be legalized everywhere so the prostitutes would be protected by the law and be treated equal.
Another thing, violence exists in marriage too. Does that mean we should ban marriages and families?
You are right when you say prostitution is a complexed issue but so is every other segment in life.

Donkey said...

I think you're right. Working in prostitution is not as bad as often believed. It is not traumatizing and there's done more in prostitution than fucking. People also socialize in prostitution. That could be fun.

However, I still have problems with trivializing. I do that too now. In my opinion, sex is never fun for a woman, it is always oppressive, so why not have sex with a prostitute? It would be better to do that to a prostitute rather than to the one you love.

So, all sex is oppression and everybody has sex and so everybody is oppressive and everybody buys all kind of stuff that is made under awful conditions in third world countries so.....

But, this way you can defend everything including beating up a person. Because that's what the factory owners do anyway with their workers, and we all buy the stuff they create so why not beat up persons ourselves?

I can just grab a girl and rape her, because that's what happens in factories, and I buy the stuff of that factory, everybody does, so indirectly we are all raping a girl. So we might just do that ourselves anyway.

Nothing matters anymore....

:(

Anonymous said...

I disagree on this, sex IS fun for women too. They want it as much as we do. Prostitutes on the other hand might not enjoy it but hey they're doing it for money. And just because there is violence in prostitution, or a factory as you said, doesn't mean the whole business is wrong. And no, I am not raping anyone because I don't know who made what I bought and under what conditions. You can't look at it that way. But you CAN prevent violence in your place or help a woman who is molested, not only in prostitution link but also at her own home.

Donkey said...

Yes, sex could be fun for women. But I think they like it in a non-sexual way.

There are different aspects of sexuality. Like the aspect of caressing and hugging and fondling and kissing and cuddling. This is in a way totally nonsexual, but people do it during sex. Women like that too.

And there is the aspect of excitement. Like having a bungee-jump. That is totally non-sexual, but very exciting.

I think women like sex in a non-sexual way. That's why women generally don't lose their "sex-drive" when their ovaries are removed, while on the other hand men do lose their sex-drive when their testicles are removed. Women have a different view of sex in the first place. For men sex means breasts, tits, doggystyle, horny etc.... For women it means: kissing, cuddling, hugging.

Anonymous said...

I am coming to Netherlands for New Year and I would like to visit RLD and have fun with women. Can you tell me what are the prices now? Do you have some tips for me?

Donkey said...

50 Euros for 15 minutes for young white women
35 Euros for 15 minutes for black women or older women (30+)

That's it.

Tips:
-Avoid the young white women, they are the ones who are often. extorted by pimps.
-Take the older women, 30+, if you can find them.

Good luck!!! ;)

Anonymous said...

Thank you very much, since I'm white I only want black women :)
Are the prices same in every city? Is there a place where they are cheaper? Because I'd like to taste more for less money lol.
And since I'm coming to Rotterdam first, I read that there is no RLD or window girls there, only clubs and so called privehuizen. Should I avoid that and try my luck only in Amsterdam?

Donkey said...

The clubs are okay. In clubs it is safe to go with Dutch girls, they are rarely extorted. Except for the Eastern European girls I guess. There are also lots of Latin American women in the clubs, they are okay too.

Generally clubs are more expensive. Like, 150-300 Euro for one hour. Or 70-150 Euro for half an hour.

If you really want to try a cheapish brothel, try:
Jan Bik in Rotterdam
address: Crooswijksesingel 33
3034 CJ Rotterdam

There you can go for 50 Euro for half and hour, and 75 Euro for an hour.

Tip: give the girls a big tip cause only 20-30 Euro goes to the club. So if you pay 130 Euro for an hour then 77% is for the girl. A really cool idea of mine. At first I was shocked by the low prices, but now that I think of it .....

:)

Anonymous said...

But I don't need to tip window girls in Amsterdam, right? Cause I don't really have money for tipping lol. Are window girls independent? I mean everything they earn goes in their pocket, no?

Donkey said...

No, you don't need to tip.

But.... in the first place, the women have to hand over a lot to the brothel owner. In window prostitution they have to rent a window first and that could cost a lot, like 100-200 Euro. So they need like 4 clients at least to start to earn money. And in the RLD in Amsterdam lots of prostitutes are extorted into handing over like 50% of the rest they earn to the extorter.

And in the clubs they have to hand over 50-66% of their earnings. But in Jan Bik if you pay for half an hour you pay 50 Euros, of which 20 Euro they have to hand over to the club. I was shocked by that when I read that but at least you know they only hand over 20 Euros. The rest is negotiated with the girl. Jan Bik sets a target of 30 Euro for the client to pay to the girl, but you can pay as much as you like and the girl can keep it! (at least, if what the website says is true)

Anonymous said...

When is the best time for me as a tourist to visit RLD, at what hours?
Before or after midnight? When is the biggest traffic?

And please if you can tell me in what part of RLD are mainly African women? :)

Donkey said...

Ooohh, that's a difficult question. With black women I also mean the Latin women. Usually they are a lot older. African women are rare in the Netherlands as far as I can see. A few years ago they mainly worked at the Oudekerkplein, if you're talking about the RLD in Amsterdam. Last time I was in the RLD in Amsterdam it was friday and it was VERY crowded. I don't like that at all. Give me a calm day, afternoon. But I don't like that RLD at all, too many bad stories.

Anonymous said...

Ok, so is there another RLD or window shopping in another city with not many tourists? Because I'm kinda insecure for going to a club because maybe they will charge the entrance or maybe I'll have to buy a drink or something like that which will cost me extra money.

Donkey said...

Well, yes, you can look on ignatzmice for a list. But, a club will do fine. I never had to pay entry.

Anonymous said...

Can you tell me from your experience what is all included in those 15 minutes? How many position changes are allowed? And is kissing allowed or do I have to pay extra for that?

Donkey said...

The standard order of actions is like this:
-You undress, she undresses, usually while you are undressing she already has quickly undressed, even before you have paid. So, no striptease. The same is true in clubs.
-You lie down on the bed and she gives you a blowjob
-She offers you a position. If you paid for 15 minutes that will usually only be one position. And then you have to finish it.
-If you pay for 30 minutes or more then you can do any position you like. You just ask and you switch position. And you can go on and on and on.
-Window prostitutes usually don't kiss. But I estimate that almost half of the club prostitutes do. That won't be deep French kissing by the way, but more like with the tip of the tongues.
-At the end you have orgasmed and that usually signals the end of the transaction. While you put on your clothes there is some time to talk. In clubs there is a bit more time to talk.

I would advise you to pay for at least 30 minutes. Then you also have the time to talk.

Always nice to talk.

Anonymous said...

How often do prostitutes in Holland have medical examination? How safe is to have sex with them? Is it ok if I ask her to show me her confirmation from doctor? I mean I will wear a condom but what if it breaks or her vagina hair gets in contact with my penis? Then I'm in deep shit haha.

Donkey said...

There's is no compulsory control for prostitutes in the Netherlands. Some clubs force them to have regular check-ups, but I doubt that is legal.

In my opinion if prostitutes must show us a confirmation-card which says that they are disease-free, then we must show them a confirmation too. That's equality before the law isn't it?

The probability of getting HIV from a prostitute is very low even with sex without condom. As for other venereal diseases I believe a yearly checkup will do. Mine is two years overdue.

Anonymous said...

Yes, me showing the papers as well would be fair. Well I guess I'll just take the risk, my life is shit anyway. Btw, have you seen the movie Taken starring Liam Neeson? It's on this subject. I would like you to watch it because I'm interested in whether there are that kinds of mafias and pimps in Holland too. What should I be aware of when visiting a prostitute in RLD or clubs? How to know if she is trafficked in?

Donkey said...

I've heard about the film, never watched it. It's fiction. I don't like fiction.

Human trafficking. I've studied it for years. Kidnapping, that happened in the Netherlands during the eighties and nineties. Prostitutes were genuinely coerced to work in prostitution at that time. Many prostitutes that were interviewed at that time indicated that they have been coerced to work in prostitution, at least in the past. Prostitution was also very lucrative at that time. Prostitutes earned lots of money and could have dozens of clients per day.

Nowadays, prostitutes are not coerced anymore. Prostitution is not so lucrative anymore. Many prostitutes are happy if they have one client a day. You don't have to be afraid that a prostitute you visit is kidnapped.

What is a problem nowadays? Brothel owners and so-called managers, or boyfriends. Brothels owners take two-thirds. Of the one-third that is left, manager takes half. One-sixth is left. Boyfriend takes the rest. :(

Anonymous said...

I see... That's fucked up. Isn't there someone in the government who works against this way of using prostitutes? Can't prostitutes sue these brothels, managers and boyfriends for taking so much money from them? Something should be done for that matter.

And I have some more questions about visiting prostitutes, sorry if I'm annoying :)
1. How much is only oral sex without condom?
2. Is facial cumshot allowed?
3. How much do compliments mean to prostitutes and do they like cuddling?

Donkey said...

Prostitutes simply don't stand up and defend themselves, like many other workers. In my opinion.

Yes, many prostitutes also offer oral sex without condom to earn some extra money, especially the older prostitutes. Like 50 Euros extra. Some prostitutes allow facials, like 5-15% of the prostitutes. Especially the escort prostitutes and the home workers allow that. For the prostitutes in clubs and in window prostitutes, this accounts to something like 5%. If have collected some information about that here, here, here, here and here, that was very time-consuming indeed.

Do prostitutes like cuddling and compliments? Actually, I don't have a clue, some say they do. Actually I have no idea what prostitutes think about their work. They do seem to have very different opinions about that which can also vary through time for the very same prostitute. Many seem to like it, many seem to hate it, and both. Metje Blaak once commented that working in prostitution is like cleaning a toilet. Jo Doezema said that it was very difficult to prevent clients from doing things she didn't want. Other prostitutes say that prostitution is very glamorous and that they are treated like a princess.

Anonymous said...

Wow, you really have done a deep research about this. About those older ones over 30, are they pretty and good-looking? Because I'm much younger than that but I wouldn't mind if they are hot. And should I feel free to ask them where are they from, do they like their job, what are their experiences etc? Is that alright to ask?

Donkey said...

Well, to be honest, many prostitutes look very ordinary, like any other woman of their age.

You could ask them anything you want. But I think they will provide you with a fake biography. They could be honest, they could be dishonest. It think they don't mind if you ask. They decide for themselves what they will answer to you.

Anonymous said...

I gotta tell you, I'm desperate and when I go to Holland every of those 7 days I plan to spend money on hookers. But I have a question for you since you believe it's better to take sexual services from women older than 30 and to avoid Eastern European girls. Isn't it better to give my money to younger ones? I think they need it more than those who already past their 20s, because they probably have already formed their life and have enough money to survive. Plus I highly doubt there is any kind of exploitation of those young women, except if their boyfriends are the problem, but they simply decided to trust them and it doesn't defer much from any other non prostitute young women who get used by boyfriends or husbands and they simply get over it and forgive them. So I think I'm helping them by giving them my money, plus I'm a kind guy so I would treat them with full respect. This is just my opinion, I might be wrong but I stay at this for now.

Donkey said...

I think the older prostitutes need the money more. They are less popular and make less money.

And I agree with you, the youngest are the hottest.

Anonymous said...

You told me that HIV is rare in Holland, but what about other STDs? And do some have blue waffle? What if I pay, she undresses and I notice her vagina has some blisters or infection? Sorry, I have to ask this because I could deal with HIV and other but this is disgusting.

Donkey said...

If you look at the report about std's in the general population, prostitutes aren't more often infected than the general population. But I think they forget that prostitutes check for std's more often than the general population so they are reinfected more often than the rest, while during one check up the probability of finding an std is the same. I think. I believe that you take risks. The girls can even get pregnant of you. Many Eastern European prostitutes don't use oral contraceptives, only condoms.

Anonymous said...

Hey, its me again, never mind lol, my brother is coming with me to Holland too but he's 16 so i'd like to know is he allowed to visit RLD and have fun too?

Donkey said...

What you ask me is a very good question!!!!

The first thought of mine is that: OF COURSE NOT!! YOU SHOULD BE AT LEAST 18!!!

However, I have looked through the internet, and I can assure you that as of October 28th 2009 it is allowed to visit prostitutes at the age of 16 at least in Amsterdam. I could derive it from this report:
Klanten van raamprostituees - De vraag naar raamprostitutie in Amsterdam onderzocht (Sander Flight, Paul Hulshof)

In this report the writers advise the municipality NOT to raise the minimum age of clients from 16 to 18!!! Because that couldn't be checked by the police anyway.

I have to warn you again. I'm now reading the book 'Kwetsbaar beroep' by Bureau Beke (vulnerable profession) about prostitution in Amsterdam and the writers say they looked into a register from May 2009 with information about 670 prostitutes and 208 'committers of violence', they mean pimps. This register is created by the police people of the Beursstraat near the Wallen. So keep in mind: for every 10 prostitutes there are 3 violent pimps.

Anonymous said...

ok thanks! well, as a regular john, have you ever came across to such pimps?

Donkey said...

You never see them in clubs.

In window prostitution, there are guys hanging around the prostitutes. But not so clear as it may say if you hear the stories. When I first began visiting prostitutes, I saw a couple of them on the second day I ever visited the Wallen. They were clearly Moroccon and stood behind the windows alongside the prostitutes. There was a change of shifts. Behind one window I saw two prostitutes and one Moroccon guy talking to one of them who was combing her hair, the other one was already sitting on a chair waiting. All in the same room. It could have been a guard hired by the brothel owner, I don't know. That's what I thougt I first. Later I realized it could have been one of those 'loverboys'.

More recently, two years ago, I was there during the afternoon. A girl left her workplace, and I decided to follow her. She was awaited by her clearly Turkish boyfriend.

Usually you don't see the pimps. I have walked there for hours without seeing anything suspicious. There are many rumours that they are in cafés, and that they monitor the women from there. Sometimes, if you hang around in one place you see groups of guys coming together, and then breaking apart. Sometimes you see guys leaning against walls or sitting on the sidewalks.

It is very difficult to determine their exact role. It could be that I'm prejudiced and that these young men have a very equal and warm relationship with the women, and that they are very tolerant about their girlfriends working in prostitution without the relationship being ever abusive. Perhaps I'm racist.

I just don't know anymore.

Donkey said...

Oops, I also want to mention something that I saw a year ago, I think this is a more clear case. If was during the afternoon, and very calm on the Wallen. I saw two Moroccan young men walking through the window streets and trying to call the phone numbers one the windows to rent a window. It is actually funny to see how these loverboys actually look. They looked quite good actually. There are some reports that loverboys are actually very ugly.

But, perhaps that I'm prejudiced again, perhaps these guys are really good managers. Although it's not allowed for the brothel owners to do business with intermediaries.

Anonymous said...

Could you please tell me, can I change Croatian kunas in an exchange office or bank there? I don't want to change all here and I might need some more money for RLD ;)

Donkey said...

W... welll...
I guess you can do that here:
pottchange at the Damrak 95 in Amsterdam.

:P

Anonymous said...

Hey! I was in Amsterdam in RLD and it was great. Women are beautiful, especially black women. They are very kind and much cheaper than white women. However I've payed more to get more physical touch like kissing, licking and sucking without a condom. I haven't noticed any violent pimps. Actually I've only noticed one man standing in the street there and checking if everything was alright but that was it. Thanks for the tips man, peace.

Donkey said...

W.. ww.. well...

You're welcome!

Yes, strange isn't it? Where are the pimps? The women seem to be able to walk away at any moment.

Anonymous said...

One said she's been working for 2 and a half years and she's planning on quiting in 2 months. So I think it's just their personal choice. They can refuse to let a man in, and I saw that.

Donkey said...

Were these black women African or South American? Or Dutch?

It is known the Latin American women are more independent, and often much older.

Did your brother join the trip also?

Anonymous said...

sorry to reply so late, every time I think of Amsterdam, I think of your blog but I always forget to check you lol.

so, these women were African although one said she was from Brazilia but then the one I became very friendly with and intimate, told me there are no other women in that street except from Africa. also when I told her the names of the other two, she didn't know them. and I think she said she knows every girl. this street is right next to and behind the Oudekerk round basilica.

so I don't know about Latinas but we noticed one from Serbia who looked jolly and said "ajde za pedeset evra da se pojebemo" LMAO which means "let's fuck for fifty euros". we recognized her cause she was playing Serbian music.

Africans are way cheaper, one offers neuken en pijpen (I've learned some Dutch lol) for 25e.

and yeah my brother came too and I think he fucked the most lol but one girl didn't want to let him in because of the police.

also, one white woman in the main street, where the river is, tricked our friend lol she told him 50e suck n fuck and she only blew him and told him to pay more if he wants sex. he was upset because of it the whole time lol! ah he's stupid, I told him to better try black or asian women.

Donkey said...

That's interesting. I actually also see these black women at the Oudekerkplein. So indeed they are from Africa. They are mostly ignored by clients when they write reviews on hookers.nl.

I notice these African women are very old. Older than 40, is that right?

The white prostitutes are reliable, you just need to pay some more then. I find 50 Euro very cheap for sucking and fucking. :P

(BTW: I wouldn't go to the white women because of the forced prostitution issue, although they are VERY HOT!!!!)

Anonymous said...

wow can you tell me in which part of hookers.nl they write? cause I can't find it and idk dutch.

some of them looked over 40 but I didn't go to those. mine were 25 to 28. but I saw one older black woman in a tight street, about 40 but she was hot! but she was 50e. and 50 is expensive for me but I once spent 140 on suck n fuck in Vienna by a black woman lol I was desperate and it was my first time with a hooker.

anyway, in Amsterdam I just spent, nothing was too expensive for me as long as I had money. I paid 100 for romance, the second time I went to her, which included kissing, touching and all. when I couldn't ejaculate, I added 30 for suck with no condom. the third time I went to her, I went to just say hi lol cause I was going home the next day, and I said I need the rest of money for the trip. then she offered the same thing romance and all for just 70! this included suck with no condom and licking her pussy :)

Donkey said...

You can find it here.

There's an index if you click on "alfabetisch".

Really, there's not much about them.

marcus said...

Thanks for this site. Could I suggest a visit to theamsterdamdiaries for an alternative perspective

Anonymous said...

Mmm, crude things.
I live in Spain. I´m not an atractive man, so, I often think that hire hookers will be the only way for me to have sex.
This about human trade scares me.

As I´ve read, things are different in Spain. In Spain almost nobody talks about pimps, they of course exist, but it seems that people don´t give them importance. I haven´t never known any case of women introducted by pimps, so they won´t be many, but some may exist. One person really near to me is married to a man that corresponds exactly with your description of a pimp.
It´s said that in Spain there are maphias that order the prostitutes to pay them a tax. The police receive a pàrt of the tax, what the government more hate about prostitution is that they doesn´t pay taxation.
I don´t know how much of the prostitutes of Spain became this work deceived and extorted.

At this points, I has 2 thing for feel relieved:
When the building boom, many prostitutes come here freely for earn money in this country.
When the crisis exploded, many of these girls saw that they doesn´t earned enough money and returned to their countries, or travelled to new ones. Most of the empty prostitution posts has been filled with spanish girls. In the good times they avoided this profession, but the lack of works, or the debts, or to find money for pay their studies, has pushed the spanish girls in this world.
Well, if a woman has been forced by economic circunstances, I don´t see bad to hire them, many people are working hard and many hours in this times. If they chose prostitution, it seems that it isn´t as bad as poverty.
For certain, in Barcelona, you´ll know, prostitutes are organizing versus the government who wants to forbide them in the streets, and versus the abolitionist. They had earned their own service of complaints.

For certain, a few thinkings:

People who say that pay for sex is immoral... Well, most men are invisible for women if they doesn´t have money. It seem, that most men always will pay for sex, for one way or other.

Sex isn´t indispensable to live. Talk with friends too isn´t indispensable, but a life without friends would be so sad. Ey, this is sad, many prostitutes says that his profession makes them difficult to maintain their friendships.

You said that for women sex is kissess, cuddling... and for men are penetrations, dogggystyle... That they doesn´t like physical part of sex. I don´t konw if Netherlands is a country of marked sexual roles and frigid women, but in Spain women like sex, too physic part, although is truth that almost 40 % of women doesn´t like much sex. For me, in sex, I want penetrate, doggydtyle, but I too want kisses and cuddling, sex without them seems so cold...